Taliban in Swat

[Martinus]

LOL yeah, I mean Saudi Arabia and Iran may be awful, but they both pale compared to Mauretania - it is a country that still has hereditary slavery, with slaves trying to escape or even being disobedient being subjected to most brutal punishments from their masters, who are free to kill them at will.

Mew! I must tell honeykitten the delightful news of this forward thinking country! Mah heart is all a flutter at thinking of moving to this country and away from the damnyankees invading my beloved south. SQUEE!

What's even better (from lettow's perspective) is that the slaves are black and the owners are non-black (albeit Arab).

[Sheilbh]

Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia is ruled by "nihilist, violent" form of Islam. They are perfectly happy stoning their own rape victims, and pushing gays off high buildings, without having to institute a global Caliphate.

No, neither are al-Qaeda or the Taliban.  But they're pretty close.

[Martinus]

I would also warn against judging Muslim societies solely on their attitudes to homosexuality.  I think most countries at a similar level of development, regardless of religion have similar views and legal systems.  India for example, or at least half of sub-Saharan Africa.

Well, only in the case of Bangladesh their stance on homosexuality was the only thing that made me vote "nay". And that's probably because I couldn't be arsed to find more fun stuff about them.

[Sheilbh]

I think this is like the third time when discussing Africa on Languish that Shielbh has tried to use Mauritania, one of the most brutally repressive countries in the world, as a shining example of Democracy.  The words Mauritania and Mali do not even look the same Shielbh...besides both starting with ma-.

It is.  I can never remember. I think I almost always think Mauritania's the good one too.  And you're always the one who corrects me

[Martinus]

Anyway I have always been fond of Mali, though it is one of the poorest countries in the world.  As I stated its president is one of my heroes.  It is proof that extreme poverty, ethnic tensions, colonialism, and Islam are not the huge obstacles to a secular Democracy people claim they are.

Yeah, I just read about them when researching stuff for this response and they seem surprisingly decent, for a country in the middle of nowhere and being full of Muslims. I always liked playing as them in Civ4 too.

[Neil]

Jailing homosexuals is not inherently anti-democratic.  The democratic countries of the West would jail homosexuals until fairly recently.

I am using harsh penalties for homosexuality as an example of these countries being islamist (religious fundamentalist) rather than anti-democratic. My point exactly is that moslems, when given a democracy, choose oppressive religious fundamentalism as their legal choice de jour.

Don't you think that because you're starting from a fallacious launch point (that punishment for homosexuality can only sprout from religious fundamentalism) that your conclusion cannot be anything but wrong?

Also, one can't really equate sharia with fundamentalism, at least not if one knows what the word 'fundamentalism' actually means.  This might indicate a language barrier, since your native tongue is Slavic Gobbledigook.

[Martinus]

I think this is like the third time when discussing Africa on Languish that Shielbh has tried to use Mauritania, one of the most brutally repressive countries in the world, as a shining example of Democracy.  The words Mauritania and Mali do not even look the same Shielbh...besides both starting with ma-.

It is.  I can never remember. I think I almost always think Mauritania's the good one too.  And you're always the one who corrects me

You should play Civ4 more. Mali had the most peaceful ruler, Mansa Musa, who always wanted to exchange techs with you, and built libraries and shit.

[Martinus]

Jailing homosexuals is not inherently anti-democratic.  The democratic countries of the West would jail homosexuals until fairly recently.

I am using harsh penalties for homosexuality as an example of these countries being islamist (religious fundamentalist) rather than anti-democratic. My point exactly is that moslems, when given a democracy, choose oppressive religious fundamentalism as their legal choice de jour.

Don't you think that because you're starting from a fallacious launch point (that punishment for homosexuality can only sprout from religious fundamentalism) that your conclusion cannot be anything but wrong?

Also, one can't really equate sharia with fundamentalism, at least not if one knows what the word 'fundamentalism' actually means.  This might indicate a language barrier, since your native tongue is Slavic Gobbledigook.

The only two historical sources of anti-homosexual persecution in the modern world were religious fundamentalism and nazism. I don't think many of these countries are nazi, though.

[Sheilbh]

It's death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy there. But continue scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, dear.

Well, yes and no.  A recent punishment for a homosexual couple who'd lived together for 7 years in Northern Nigeria was a fine of $38 and the man, who was judged to be the corrupter, got six months in prison.

Lesbianism, under some Nigerian sharia law, is actually legal.  But one woman must count as the 'man' and polygamous lesbianism isn't allowed.  That's the sort of thing I mean by a developing understanding of Sharia.

[Martinus]

It's death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy there. But continue scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, dear.

Well, yes and no.  A recent punishment for a homosexual couple who'd lived together for 7 years in Northern Nigeria was a fine of $38 and the man, who was judged to be the corrupter, got six months in prison.

Lesbianism, under some Nigerian sharia law, is actually legal.  But one woman must count as the 'man' and polygamous lesbianism isn't allowed.  That's the sort of thing I mean by a developing understanding of Sharia.

Well it's still a hellhole of a dump.

[Sheilbh]

And, interestingly, in many courts, because of the penalties, the judges actually change the charges from 'homosexuality' to 'cross-dressing/female impersonation' which carries far less of a theoretical penalty.

[Neil]

The only two historical sources of anti-homosexual persecution were religious fundamentalism and nazism. I don't think many of these countries are nazi, though.

This is of course incorrect.  It is perfectly natural for people to want to punish the other, especially the other that attacks everything that a man holds dear about himself.  The need to eliminate gays can also come from a kind of 'social fundamentalism', as it did throughout the West for many years between the death of Christianity and the rise of the gay social movements in the last 40 years.

[Valmy]

And, interestingly, in many courts, because of the penalties, the judges actually change the charges from 'homosexuality' to 'cross-dressing/female impersonation' which carries far less of a theoretical penalty.

Well hopefully the Archangel Gabriel change the Quran to say Homosexuality is ok.

[Eochaid]

Ok let's take a closer look at your lists, gents:

Albania - not a muslim country - according to wiki 60-75% of people declare themselves as "non-religious"
Bengladesh - Homosexuality penalised by life in prison
Bosnia - only exists thanks to UN troops, too early to tell
Indonesia - only recently emerged from dictatorship, has some non-dominant but strong sharia muslim parties, will see
Kosovo - you must be joking, it's a rogue/mafia state
Lebanon - not a strictly muslim state, as Islam is not truly dominant with Christianity being quite strong; the government is based on the confessional system with each religion being given some positions
Malaysia - In five states, apostasy from islam is a criminal offense. Nigga, please.
Mali - Ok!
Senegal - Homosexuality penalised up to life in prison
Turkey - already addressed
Tanzania - equal number of Christians and Moslems - not a Muslim country
Ghana - errr bitch, 60% Christian, 16% Muslim - what are you smoking? What's next? France as a succesful muslim democracy?
Palestine - NOT a country AND has sharia

So, Kevin, my dear boy, learn what you are talking about before talking with adults.

Nice trolling. Futile, but nice.

Albania: 70% Moslem according to CIA Factbook.
Bengladesh: so? Since when is persecution of homosexuality incompatible with Democracy? As long as the majority of voters support the persecution it IS a democracy, however unpleasant it might seem to us.
Bosnia: emerging federal democratic republic  (according to CIA Factbook)
Indonesia: agreed, but so far so good.
Kosovo: still a democracy. UN observers noted to fraud during the last (and only) elections.
Lebanon: 60% moslems. My point holds
Malaysia: so? Divorce was illegal in Irleand until 1995 and abortion, for whatever reason, still is. Because the Church says so. DO you claim Ireland isn't a Democracy.
Senegal: so? See BAngladesh
Turkey: Moslem Democrats... just the same as Christian Democrats if you ask me. Still is a democracy and has official EU candidate status.  For which one of the requirements is to be a democracy.
Tanzania: still are more Moslems than Christians. And Moslems hold the economy.
Ghana: sorry, meant The Gambia. points hold
Palestine: still has an indpendent government. Still counts.

You fail because you equate Democracy with Western Human Rights. Did you even bother reading Huntington?

Kevin

[Jacob]

You fail because you equate Democracy with Western Human Rights.

Actually, that's not why Marty fails.  He fails because he's solipsistic, intending only to justify his own prejudice.  Equating Democracy with Western Human Rights is, of course, a bit of a classification error, but Marty's failings run deeper than that.