Slavery in the US in 1861 - question

[Razgovory]

I fail to see how it's that's relevant.  You said something could not be, and it was.  There was nothing "special" about the circumstances.

I am not sure what this argument is about.  Iron making isn't "industrial" except in the grossest sense.  The Pharaohs had those kinds of "industries" and probably used slaves to stoke the furnaces back then, too.

How would you characterize an Ironworks?

[Viking]

Yet they didn't choose to invest in manufacturing using slaves, preferring to use free men in the north.

Probably had more to do with transportation and proximity to customers.

So the south did not consume steel or cloth or any industrial products?

[Razgovory]

Yet they didn't choose to invest in manufacturing using slaves, preferring to use free men in the north.

Probably had more to do with transportation and proximity to customers.

So the south did not consume steel or cloth or any industrial products?

Not to the same extent, no.  The South had little in the way of urban population.  Most people where rural farmers.  Not only where they typically dirt poor, but it was hard to transport goods to them.  It didn't help that the Southern rail net was a bit chaotic.

[Viking]

Yet they didn't choose to invest in manufacturing using slaves, preferring to use free men in the north.

Probably had more to do with transportation and proximity to customers.

So the south did not consume steel or cloth or any industrial products?

Not to the same extent, no.  The South had little in the way of urban population.  Most people where rural farmers.  Not only where they typically dirt poor, but it was hard to transport goods to them.  It didn't help that the Southern rail net was a bit chaotic.

So, you are suggesting that the confederate states were self sufficient in industrial goods pre war?

[Razgovory]

So, you are suggesting that the confederate states were self sufficient in industrial goods pre war?

Nope.  I'm suggesting that many Southerners just had to with out.

[Viking]

So, you are suggesting that the confederate states were self sufficient in industrial goods pre war?

Nope.  I'm suggesting that many Southerners just had to with out.

Yet again you are nothing more than a massive digression. We were discussing if industrialization led to abolition.

[grumbler]

How would you characterize an Ironworks?

An establishment where iron is smelted or where heavy iron products are made.

[Razgovory]

How would you characterize an Ironworks?

An establishment where iron is smelted or where heavy iron products are made.

What kind of business would that be?  Agricultural?  Service?

[Razgovory]

So, you are suggesting that the confederate states were self sufficient in industrial goods pre war?

Nope.  I'm suggesting that many Southerners just had to with out.

Yet again you are nothing more than a massive digression. We were discussing if industrialization led to abolition.

Then don't ask me questions if you don't want to read the answer.

[grumbler]

Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond was one of the places that attempted to use slaves in skilled industrial work, and it failed.  Quality was simply not adequate, even though its manager abandoned chattel slavery and paid the slaves for hours worked - over 60 per week! 

Slaves are saboteurs, as I noted earlier.  That is why the South couldn't industrialize using slaves and wouldn't have been able to mechanize farming with slaves.

With the Southerners unable to blackmail the North into enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, the South would have been hard pressed to hold on to its slaves.  The more skilled the Southerners tried to make them as part of an industrial revolution, the more likely the slave could get a better job if he escaped, and the more incentive to do so (and for Northerners to help). 

[grumbler]

What kind of business would that be?  Agricultural?  Service?

probably not.

[Razgovory]

Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond was one of the places that attempted to use slaves in skilled industrial work, and it failed.  Quality was simply not adequate, even though its manager abandoned chattel slavery and paid the slaves for hours worked - over 60 per week! 

Slaves are saboteurs, as I noted earlier.  That is why the South couldn't industrialize using slaves and wouldn't have been able to mechanize farming with slaves.

With the Southerners unable to blackmail the North into enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, the South would have been hard pressed to hold on to its slaves.  The more skilled the Southerners tried to make them as part of an industrial revolution, the more likely the slave could get a better job if he escaped, and the more incentive to do so (and for Northerners to help).

When did Tredgar abandon slavery?

[grumbler]

When did Tredgar abandon slavery?

12:34 pm.

[Razgovory]

Looking around it was going on in 1861 and I have no reference to the voluntary abolition of the practice.  In fact, it was apparently quite profitable.  Cases of industrial slavery have been documented in the modern day in East Asia.  Sweatshops and a brick manufacturer in China.

[Viking]

So, you are suggesting that the confederate states were self sufficient in industrial goods pre war?

Nope.  I'm suggesting that many Southerners just had to with out.

Yet again you are nothing more than a massive digression. We were discussing if industrialization led to abolition.

Then don't ask me questions if you don't want to read the answer.

advice worth taking it seems...