Game of Thrones fans, who would you follow

[Faeelin]

Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.

I don't understand your point.  You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?

[Tamas]

So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? 

As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.

Depends on what you mean by "actual father". I would argue that Robert, bad as he was, was more of a father to Joffrey than Jaime. Certainly Joffrey saw it as such.

Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.

sure. but the point was that you needed clear grounds for inheritance to minimize feuds. biological father was by far the clearest of the era.

[Solmyr]

And Marty has illustrated why I support the workers and peasants of Westeros. I wonder how hard it would be to get some Soviet advisors over there...

The BWB are clearly the Red Menace.

[Martinus]

Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.

I don't understand your point.  You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?

My point is that readers seem to internalize these rules and consider them rational or fair, even though they aren't (otherwise, why is Ned Stark considered honorable and a "good guy"? If these rules are unfair and immoral, then someone who sticks to them should be seen at best as a amoral legalist, not a hero). Plus, these rules seem flexible and flouted often enough to make anyone who pretends to stick by them a hypocrite (see: Ned Stark).

[Solmyr]

As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.

One of the things that mildly annoys me about Westeros is that even though it's a pastiche of feudal Europe in size, the notion of free city, pikemen, etc. doesn't seem to show up.

It's not a big deal, but it'd be nice to see the smallfolk do something other than be gangraped.

They have the Free Cities, just not in Westeros.

[Eddie Teach]

The word birthright kinda implies that it's something that's been there since birth... Robert may have been preteen little shit Joff's "actual father" due to having raised him, but he wasn't mewling babe Joff's father.

[Slargos]

Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.

I don't understand your point.  You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?

My point is that readers seem to internalize these rules and consider them rational or fair, even though they aren't (otherwise, why is Ned Stark considered honorable and a "good guy"? If these rules are unfair and immoral, then someone who sticks to them should be seen at best as a amoral legalist, not a hero). Plus, these rules seem flexible and flouted often enough to make anyone who pretends to stick by them a hypocrite (see: Ned Stark).

The importance of genetic relation is something that most everyone feels on an intuitive level. It's as close to "natural" law as you can get.

The notion that the social bond is more important than the blood is, I would suspect, a fairly recent invention.

Yes, I am sure you can find exceptions (especially the rometards) but it doesn't really change anything.

The only unnatural thing here is insisting that the concept of "birthright" is "unfair".

[grumbler]

He perceives his ends as having the "rightful heir win". I am not saying that his ends are selfish, but that he does something that is, at its basic, dishonorable/unprincipled (altering someone else's last will) in order to further his own "honorable agenda".

What he does is not at all unprincipled or dishonest.  He does exactly what he knows Robert would want him to do, if Robert were in any position to comprehend the truth and state a position. He spares Robert the truth for what he sees as honorable and valid reasons (and ones a discerning reader can also perceive as such) but ensures that his concern for his friend does not harm the realm by making Robert's behest read as it would if Robert knew the truth.

Principles and honor come precisely from doing the "right thing," even if that does not serve one's own ends.  Ned's actions are practically a poster-child example of such actions.  Ned perceives his ends as serving his family and people.  He could best serve those ends by having his daughter married to the king.  he goes against his own ends first by accepting the job as the Hand, and then again by taking a stand against Cersei and the illegitimate kids.  Ned is too honorable to be smart, alas - not the reverse, as it seems you would have it.

[Valmy]

All things being equal I would go Targ.

[Martinus]

All things being equal I would go Targ.

Madness and incest? Give back your Jacobin card.

[Valmy]

Madness and incest? Give back your Jacobin card.

Dragons baby.  If I am a Hedge Knight I play to win.

Besides a line of mad and incest ridden monarchs will bring about the Westeros Liberal Revolution faster.

[grumbler]

The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.

I think you miss the point.  Ned's ends didn't change.  He never had as his end to see anyone specific on the throne, or even anyone specifically "legitimate" on the throne.  Ned's ends were familial and personal; he wanted to serve his family and people, and he wanted to find out what happened to his mentor and friend.  Everything he did came from serving those ends.

[Sophie Scholl]

A few things that I feel should be thrown into the discussion that I've noticed while reading through the books (Almost done with A Clash of Kings):

Jaimie was there for Joffrey's conception, birth, and raising.  Robert was not.  Cersei explains how Robert needs to feel loved and feel that people like him, but Joffrey never did.  He always cried when Robert tried to interact with him, whereas Robert's bastards loved him and his attention as babies/children.  Joffrey did however enjoy Jaimie's presence.  This led to even more resentment on Robert's part, and more pushing toward the Lannisters, his legitimate genetic parents.

With regard to legitimacy of claims, House Baratheon is related to House Targaryen, and as such has their claim to the throne via those blood ties.  Add in the right of conquest for vanquishing the parent branch of the Targaryens, and you have them as the most legitimate house on two levels.  House Lannister has 0 claim to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, other than Cersei's marriage to Robert.  Her bastards with Jaimie have no claim at all then.

In terms of the incest thing, which you've talked down in the past Marti, it is stated that it is considered a terrible crime and unnatural in Westeros.  The only reason the Targaryens are excused is because they aren't of Westeros, but of Valereyan descent, and have different customs and ways of doing things that are alien.

[Sahib]

I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.

He wants to convert the country to a new foreign, extremely intolerant religion.
What could possibly go wrong? 

[Slargos]

The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.

I think you miss the point.  Ned's ends didn't change.  He never had as his end to see anyone specific on the throne, or even anyone specifically "legitimate" on the throne.  Ned's ends were familial and personal; he wanted to serve his family and people, and he wanted to find out what happened to his mentor and friend.  Everything he did came from serving those ends.

Maybe you're right.