Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Berkut]

Everyone operates under budget constraints though. I am not at all criticizing the effectiveness of the parole system - I hardly know enough about it to do so. I operate under the assumption that it is basically doing a typically mediocre job that all government agencies do barring any further information to suggests that they are especially incompetent.

It is easy to blame a union and the masses of workers who belong to it but politicians and upper management are never forced to do anything (at least by public employee unions in NYS) they aren't willing to do.

See, this is bullshit. They are forced to do things - Patterson has no shot at re-election, and that is at least in part because he took on the unions (and the health industry and the education industry - a  trifecta of liberal left wing entitlement, any one of which is pretty much untouchable). They will punish him for that. So the problem is that the market is not deciding employment terms - instead it is done via politics and all that entails. Repeating the "nobody was forced to give us a grossly unfair employment deal" is bullshit. Whether they were "forced" or not is a matter of semantics.

The reality is that the public employees have immense political power, and they have leveraged that into deals that are almost breathtaking in their generosity all out of proportion to what is available in the free market - especially in the state of New York, which is historically very liberal. hence the incredibly low turnover and extremely high desire for the jobs you cited earlier that is a textbook indicator that there is NOT a free market.

I find it rather sad that you try to sell this as your convictions objective of your personal position though.

The ironic thing is that it is that liberalness that your normally despise so much that has made your sweetheart deal possible. A liberalism that you have been 100% consistent in decrying...except when it comes to your sweetheart deal. I don't mind that you are taking advantage of the sweetheart deal - we all have to make the best of what is available to us, within reason. But to pretend that you are really a True Socialist when it comes to unions of all things? Please. That dog won't hunt.

Lastly, no, your focus on "how many felons I re-arrested" is hardly the result of societal/political pressures. That is your personal choice.

[Strix]

See, this is bullshit. They are forced to do things - Patterson has no shot at re-election, and that is at least in part because he took on the unions (and the health industry and the education industry - a  trifecta of liberal left wing entitlement, any one of which is pretty much untouchable). They will punish him for that. So the problem is that the market is not deciding employment terms - instead it is done via politics and all that entails. Repeating the "nobody was forced to give us a grossly unfair employment deal" is bullshit. Whether they were "forced" or not is a matter of semantics.

The reality is that the public employees have immense political power, and they have leveraged that into deals that are almost breathtaking in their generosity all out of proportion to what is available in the free market - especially in the state of New York, which is historically very liberal. hence the incredibly low turnover and extremely high desire for the jobs you cited earlier that is a textbook indicator that there is NOT a free market.

I find it rather sad that you try to sell this as your convictions objective of your personal position though.

The ironic thing is that it is that liberalness that your normally despise so much that has made your sweetheart deal possible. A liberalism that you have been 100% consistent in decrying...except when it comes to your sweetheart deal. I don't mind that you are taking advantage of the sweetheart deal - we all have to make the best of what is available to us, within reason. But to pretend that you are really a True Socialist when it comes to unions of all things? Please. That dog won't hunt.

Lastly, no, your focus on "how many felons I re-arrested" is hardly the result of societal/political pressures. That is your personal choice.

I love that being a public state employee in NYS equals being a socialist. That is good stuff.

And budget constraints play a major role in parole. It means more parolees being released to save money in the prison system, it means less officers to handle parolees because of hiring freezes, it means less resources to deal with the problems of parolees because of budget freezes, and much more.

Most parole officers are carrying 25% more than the national standard considers acceptable. And that number will only increase with the elimination of jobs. And so will the associated issues with reduced standards of supervision.

The result will be more shootings like the one that took place in Syracuse recently and the parolee shot to death in an office in NYC.

[Berkut]

I love that being a public state employee in NYS equals being a socialist. That is good stuff.

No, being a champion of a socialist union system that is anti-free market certainly makes you a socialist though. Which is precisely what you are doing. Nice strawman though.

This is exactly what I mean though - you won't hesitate to call everyone else "liberals" and blame the ills of society on "iberals" (see your comment about how Rochester has a high crime rate becaus eof "liberal judges" or whatever), yet at the same time you are the champion of a system that is literally as left wing liberal as anything in New York. There is nothing in this state that is more a example of the socail/liberal bent of New York politics than the public unions.

It is like saying you are pro-life, but really are a huge fan of third trimester abortion, because your girlfriend is in her third trimester and you don't want the kid.

And budget constraints play a major role in parole. It means more parolees being released to save money in the prison system, it means less officers to handle parolees because of hiring freezes, it means less resources to deal with the problems of parolees because of budget freezes, and much more.

Welcome to the world that everyone lives in. Budget constraints constrain every job in the world. What is rinoic is that the state of New York spends more on this stuff than just about any other state in the union - because *wait for it* it is incredibly socialist (relative to the country at large) and taxes the holy fuck out of its citizens to pay for it.

And if we were talking about anything other than the job YOU work at, you would be decrying the high taxes and waste of the government.

Most parole officers are carrying 25% more than the national standard considers acceptable.

My wife was working as a social worker for the seriously mentally ill before we started our family. She NEVER had less than 150% the mandated maximum case load she was supposed to be able to handle by law and routinely carried 200%.

What is your point? You have a high case load? Boo-hoo. I bet most social workers would kill to only be 25% over the recommended amount, much less being 150% over the maximum amount. I bet Julie was probably at 4 or 5 times the recommended amount.

All this costs money - you think the parole system should ahve more money? How about all the other social programs the state funds that are also working under budget constraints? Should they all get more money as well? Maybe we could raise taxes on the rich people in New York to pay for it all.

And that number will only increase with the elimination of jobs. And so will the associated issues with reduced standards of supervision.

So? That is true regardless, and always will be. If they did not cut anything, they would argue that they need more.

how do you think new York should pay for all this? Can you come up with something other than rtite demands to "cut inefficiency" or something unattainable like that?

Are you in favor of massive tax increases in New York to cover the deficit and pay for your raises that nobody forced the state to give you?

The result will be more shootings like the one that took place in Syracuse recently and the parolee shot to death in an office in NYC.

yeah, the result of us not spending more and more and more and more and more and more money on social programs/education/health care/roads/defense/retirement/law enforcement/arts/etc.,etc.,etc., is always some incredibly dire and terrible to contemplate tragedy.

Which is why the state of New York is up to its ears in debt and no business wants anything to do with it and its economy is shit. Liberal emotive bullshit like what you just posted.

[Strix]

No, being a champion of a socialist union system that is anti-free market certainly makes you a socialist though. Which is precisely what you are doing. Nice strawman though.

This is exactly what I mean though - you won't hesitate to call everyone else "liberals" and blame the ills of society on "iberals" (see your comment about how Rochester has a high crime rate becaus eof "liberal judges" or whatever), yet at the same time you are the champion of a system that is literally as left wing liberal as anything in New York. There is nothing in this state that is more a example of the socail/liberal bent of New York politics than the public unions.

It is like saying you are pro-life, but really are a huge fan of third trimester abortion, because your girlfriend is in her third trimester and you don't want the kid.

It's called not being shoehorned into a Republican or Democrat. You might have the straight ticket mentality but not all of us share it.

Welcome to the world that everyone lives in. Budget constraints constrain every job in the world. What is rinoic is that the state of New York spends more on this stuff than just about any other state in the union - because *wait for it* it is incredibly socialist (relative to the country at large) and taxes the holy fuck out of its citizens to pay for it.

And if we were talking about anything other than the job YOU work at, you would be decrying the high taxes and waste of the government.

My wife was working as a social worker for the seriously mentally ill before we started our family. She NEVER had less than 150% the mandated maximum case load she was supposed to be able to handle by law and routinely carried 200%.

What is your point? You have a high case load? Boo-hoo. I bet most social workers would kill to only be 25% over the recommended amount, much less being 150% over the maximum amount. I bet Julie was probably at 4 or 5 times the recommended amount.

All this costs money - you think the parole system should ahve more money? How about all the other social programs the state funds that are also working under budget constraints? Should they all get more money as well? Maybe we could raise taxes on the rich people in New York to pay for it all.

If you don't mind public safety being compromised than it's no big deal for you. You have made your position clear.

So? That is true regardless, and always will be. If they did not cut anything, they would argue that they need more.

how do you think new York should pay for all this? Can you come up with something other than rtite demands to "cut inefficiency" or something unattainable like that?

Are you in favor of massive tax increases in New York to cover the deficit and pay for your raises that nobody forced the state to give you?

I am all for public safety and I am all for politicians making responsible budget choices. Lay-offs are a political power play and nothing more at this point. 

yeah, the result of us not spending more and more and more and more and more and more money on social programs/education/health care/roads/defense/retirement/law enforcement/arts/etc.,etc.,etc., is always some incredibly dire and terrible to contemplate tragedy.

Which is why the state of New York is up to its ears in debt and no business wants anything to do with it and its economy is shit. Liberal emotive bullshit like what you just posted.

Yes, a police officer being shot is liberal emo bullshit. Yes, a serial rapist who should never have been released being gunned down after taking a parole officer hostage is emo bullshit.

Who cares about public safety, well, we know you don't anyways.

[Berkut]

LOL, and Strix plays the liberal emo card perfectly.

"You don't care about cops being killed! Or children being educated! Or people getting health care! Or criminals being prosecuted! Or veterans being taken care of! Or children starving!"

Strangely silent on how all this should be paid for of course...

The only thing that is sad about this is that unlike most liberals, you are 100% selective - the only thing you insist on being liberal emo about is that you get paid more. So, you know, police officers won't be shot. Which is what will, of course, happen if your union does not get your raises.

[Berkut]

It's called not being shoehorned into a Republican or Democrat. You might have the straight ticket mentality but not all of us share it.

But that is just it Strixy - this is the ONLY issue I can ever recall you being a radical lefty bleeding heart liberal on, and it is as lefty bleeding heart socialist as it comes.

I am sure that you being a direct beneficiary of the socialist state in this case only is simply a coincidence.

[Berkut]

Lay-offs are a political power play and nothing more at this point.

Yeah, Patterson is really making some political hay with his threat to lay off union workers. Tell me Strix, what is his play here? He is a dyed in the wool Democrat who is a historic supporter of all things liberal, like unions. What is his goal, why is he trying to do this since it clearly has nothing to do with the $17 billion deficit and is politically suicidal?

[DGuller]

Speaking of law enforcement, I think a lot of us in this thread are this close to being put on sex offender list, for what we're doing to Strix here.

[Berkut]

Speaking of law enforcement, I think a lot of us in this thread are this close to being put on sex offender list, for what we're doing to Strix here.

The only question I ahve at this point is whether he really believes what he is saying, or if he is just too stubborn to admit he is a hypocrite.

I am not really sure what would be worse.

[The Brain]

God save the USSA.

[Strix]

It's called not being shoehorned into a Republican or Democrat. You might have the straight ticket mentality but not all of us share it.

But that is just it Strixy - this is the ONLY issue I can ever recall you being a radical lefty bleeding heart liberal on, and it is as lefty bleeding heart socialist as it comes.

I am sure that you being a direct beneficiary of the socialist state in this case only is simply a coincidence.

Pay more attention than. I am as far right as you can go when it comes to crime and foreign policy. The rest just varies. You, along with many others on Languish, assume I am hardcore conservative right and just have issues understanding that isn't how I feel on all issues. It can even get more complex on single issues e.g. I encourage and like immigration and immigrants but I detest illegals.

[Caliga]

Pay more attention than. I am as far right as you can go when it comes to crime and foreign policy. The rest just varies. You, along with many others on Languish, assume I am hardcore conservative right and just have issues understanding that isn't how I feel on all issues. It can even get more complex on single issues e.g. I encourage and like immigration and immigrants but I detest illegals.

Assuming everyone is a party ideologue is a Raz schtick, not a Berkut schtick. 

Even Hans isn't truly a Republican ideologue, despite his typical posturing on this board.

[Strix]

Lay-offs are a political power play and nothing more at this point.

Yeah, Patterson is really making some political hay with his threat to lay off union workers. Tell me Strix, what is his play here? He is a dyed in the wool Democrat who is a historic supporter of all things liberal, like unions. What is his goal, why is he trying to do this since it clearly has nothing to do with the $17 billion deficit and is politically suicidal?

No one knows what Paterson's play is here. I doubt even he does. He will not only cost himself but his party as well. My best guess is that alternatives to laying off union members/reneging on raises would effect payback for his supporters and political base, and so he is willing to take a hit that doesn't matter to protect them.

NY spends over $1.5 billion on private contractors. I think it's safe to assume that some of that goes towards paying off political markers. And that cash pool would be one of the first alternatives to be reduced if union workers keep their raises.

[garbon]

It can even get more complex on single issues e.g. I encourage and like immigration and immigrants but I detest illegals.

I could see that, if you swap out "complex" for "hypocritical and ridiculous."

[Strix]

Assuming everyone is a party ideologue is a Raz schtick, not a Berkut schtick. 

Even Hans isn't truly a Republican ideologue, despite his typical posturing on this board.

Berkut has been poaching on Raz's turf. I am just not sure if that means the water heater or laundry area in the basement.