Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[ulmont]

One very big difference is that a federal prisoner can't be paroled!   

Right, I understand.  I'm just saying that 10 years in prison + 5 years out under conditions is the same whether you assign the 5 years by a judge and call it supervised release or assign it by a parole board and call it parole.

[Strix]

Unfortunately, Monroe County is one of the most liberal counties in the state. It is not uncommon for a murder to be reduced to Criminal Possession of a Weapon.

There many good reasons why Rochester is only behind Detroit and Baltimore for violent deaths per capita. And a very liberal court system is one of them.

[Berkut]

I think it is mostly due to the unions.

[garbon]

I blame the free market.

[Berkut]

I think it is mostly due to the unions.

I blame the free market.

Unions == free market, so you are saying the same thing.

[garbon]

Unions == free market, so you are saying the same thing.

I live in California; we've disentangled them...and as such, it is hard for me to use such terminology.

[grumbler]

grumbler, you conceded my point about "at will"

What I conceded was that you didn't understand the concept, but that it was immaterial to the point I was making (which you have conceded).

An "at will employment" state is one in which, as I have said before (and you failed to grasp), there are no employer or employee obligations upon termination other than those contained in contracts (explicit or implied).  That is an actual legally-defined term, so your inability to understand it changes its meaning not at all.

...so I am not sure what you're attempting to argue now other than your usual trying to change the argument to fit the point you were making stuff.

The "stuff" that I was "making" is called "persuasive arguments." Even you have been convinced to concede to them, so you might want to try it out, rather than your usual strawmen, ad homs, and red herrings.

[Strix]

The "stuff" that I was "making" is called "persuasive arguments."  even you should have been convinced to concede to them because of my use of strawmen, ad homs, and red herrings.

I fixed that for you! 

[MadImmortalMan]

Wow, I remember Monroe County a lot differently. It was a pretty happy time in my life. Of course, I lived way outside of Rochester proper.

[Berkut]

Wow, I remember Monroe County a lot differently. It was a pretty happy time in my life. Of course, I lived way outside of Rochester proper.

Everyone does - even Strix.

[Strix]

Wow, I remember Monroe County a lot differently. It was a pretty happy time in my life. Of course, I lived way outside of Rochester proper.

Everyone does - even Strix.

Hell yeah. There is a reason that Rochester has over 2,800 crac--er abandoned houses within the city limits.

[dps]

a parolee agrees to allow their officers to conduct warrantless searches of their residence and person as a condition of release, so warrants don't become an issue until we start knocking on family members doors.

I don't think that's the case here in North Carolina, because the governor recently suggested changes in the system here that included allowing the home of a parolees to be searched without a warrant.  Or maybe it was just in the case where the home was shared with other family members.  I'm not sure.

[Strix]

I don't think that's the case here in North Carolina, because the governor recently suggested changes in the system here that included allowing the home of a parolees to be searched without a warrant.  Or maybe it was just in the case where the home was shared with other family members.  I'm not sure.

It's the same in NC. Basically on their release conditions is a rule that states that the Division of Parole (or in NC's case the Department of Community Corrections) has the right to search their person, place, and vehicle without a warrant.

There are some differences. In NC, the person needs to be home which is not the case in NY. Also in NC, the probationer/parolee has the right to say no though in that case he/she can be arrested on the spot for violating the terms of release.

What the governor may be saying is that they could be changing the scope of the condition. In both NY and NC, you are only able to search the parolee's sleeping area and any common areas that he has access e.g. basement, attic, hallways, kitchen, bathrooms, etc. You cannot search the rooms of other family members without consent or a reasonable belief that safety might be an issue e.g. someone hiding behind a closed door, long gun in open view, etc.

[Berkut]

To be honest Strix, I do actually respect what you do. While I think you are certainly very over-paid from a market perspective, I don't think you are over-paid from the perspective of value to society for the work that law enforcement does.

The problem I have is this:

1. That "value to society" thing does not apply to 80% of the people covered under the public service unions, including plenty of people in law enforcement who are doing work that can be done by just about anyone, and simply does not deserve the rather incredible amount of money they are making and beenfits they enjoy.

2. I find your claim that your support for the unions is based on anything other than self-interest completely in-credible. I don't think anyone in this thread, yourself included, believe for a moment that your position on the current contract debate would be at all the same if you were not in the union yourself.

3. I would be much more impressed if your sig included the percentage of parolees under your charge who did not re-offend and successfully returned to society, and how much better it is than the average. For that, IMO, is your job. Not crowing about how many you got tossed back into jail. Every single one you throw back in prison is a failure of the parole system, and to some degree, a failure on your part as an officer of that system. It may be necessary, but it isn't anything to be all that proud of - you are a parole officer, not a bounty hunter. Just my opinion, of course.

[Strix]

To be honest Strix, I do actually respect what you do. While I think you are certainly very over-paid from a market perspective, I don't think you are over-paid from the perspective of value to society for the work that law enforcement does.

The problem I have is this:

1. That "value to society" thing does not apply to 80% of the people covered under the public service unions, including plenty of people in law enforcement who are doing work that can be done by just about anyone, and simply does not deserve the rather incredible amount of money they are making and beenfits they enjoy.

2. I find your claim that your support for the unions is based on anything other than self-interest completely in-credible. I don't think anyone in this thread, yourself included, believe for a moment that your position on the current contract debate would be at all the same if you were not in the union yourself.

3. I would be much more impressed if your sig included the percentage of parolees under your charge who did not re-offend and successfully returned to society, and how much better it is than the average. For that, IMO, is your job. Not crowing about how many you got tossed back into jail. Every single one you throw back in prison is a failure of the parole system, and to some degree, a failure on your part as an officer of that system. It may be necessary, but it isn't anything to be all that proud of - you are a parole officer, not a bounty hunter. Just my opinion, of course.

1) This is an issue that has more to do with society in general than unions at least in NYS in regards to public employees. People complain about the waste and inefficiency of State workers when it is the fault of politicians and societal/legal pressure that determines a lot of the people being hired. NYS uses a Civil Service exam for the first level of screening for new applicants. Don't blame the unions if the State is willing to skip people who score higher on the test for those who score lower but meet other criteria. Also don't blame the unions when upper management wants to add redundant layers of management and labor to departments to further their career goals.

It is easy to blame a union and the masses of workers who belong to it but politicians and upper management are never forced to do anything (at least by public employee unions in NYS) they aren't willing to do.

2) You don't have a choice in NYS. You pay your union dues regardless of membership so only a fool would ignore the added benefits. And, yes, my opinion would be pretty much the same. I expect some sort of integrity from my leaders. Paterson signing a deal than trying to break it less than 12 months later doesn't say a lot for his integrity (of course the coke years and cheating on his wife doesn't either).

3) Once again it has everything to do with societal/political pressures. People are being let out of prison who would never even be considered for parole 5-10 years ago so that NYS government can show that prison populations are low which means they can go ahead and close facilities.  Three of the captures I list were the result of parolee's failing to show for their initial arrival reports. You can hardly blame the parole system if someone doesn't even try. Most current parolee releases are the results of what is known as Conditional Release. The CR date is set by DOCS and the parole commission has no input other than placing some conditions. So, basically, a separate organization, DOCS, is handing people to parole saying you deal with them now.

Contrary to your belief that I am crowing or being boastful the truth is I am not. I am proud of the number of people that have been captured because that means X number of new crimes and victims will not happen. If I were being boastful than I would tell you the manner in which they were caught and all that other associated crap.

Monroe County has a 89% successful completion rate for parole re-entry. It is the highest in NYS.  Re-entry are those parolee's who are released before their CR dates by the parole commission.

If you want to criticize the effectiveness of parole in NYS than I would suggest you do some research on what budget constraints has done to the parole system and parole resources.