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So we hit the debt limit...

Started by MadImmortalMan, May 17, 2011, 01:18:23 PM

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MadImmortalMan

Quote from: derspiess on August 01, 2011, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 01, 2011, 10:47:44 AM
The deal does have revenues. The Bush tax cuts are expiring. It's just the GOP has the cover of automatic expiration to claim they didn't raise taxes.

But do we even have any *real* spending cuts?  Or are the spending 'cuts' in this deal just going to somewhat reduce the rate of increased spending.  IIRC, with congress's baseline budgeting shenanigans a certain increase in spending (6-7%?) over the previous year is taken for granted, and anything that reduces that increase is considered a cut.

As far as I know, there are no cuts below the baseline in any of this. It's all decreases in the rate of growth. A spending freeze would probably count as a ten trillion dollar cut using these methods.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

Zoupa

Quote from: garbon on August 01, 2011, 10:10:05 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2011, 10:05:03 AM
After all, if half of their lies are accepted as a reasonable middle ground, then there is incentive to just keep warping reality as far as imagination will allow, and you're going to be granted half of that.  Sometime the only reasonable and proper thing to say is:  "You guys are totally fucking nuts, you're out of this world, virtually nothing you say has any semblance of facts in it."

Sounds like you'd be better off saying nothing.

Oh, irony. You should think about this post of yours each time your little mouse goes over the "Post" button and you're about to click. Ask yourself, aren't I better off not saying a thing?

Which, by the way, is better english than "saying nothing".

DGuller

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 01, 2011, 11:42:26 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 01, 2011, 11:23:08 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 01, 2011, 10:47:44 AM
The deal does have revenues. The Bush tax cuts are expiring. It's just the GOP has the cover of automatic expiration to claim they didn't raise taxes.

But do we even have any *real* spending cuts?  Or are the spending 'cuts' in this deal just going to somewhat reduce the rate of increased spending.  IIRC, with congress's baseline budgeting shenanigans a certain increase in spending (6-7%?) over the previous year is taken for granted, and anything that reduces that increase is considered a cut.

As far as I know, there are no cuts below the baseline in any of this. It's all decreases in the rate of growth. A spending freeze would probably count as a ten trillion dollar cut using these methods.
As it should be.  The baseline should not be the current level of spending, it should be expected future level of spending given the reasonable assumptions.

garbon

Quote from: Zoupa on August 01, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Which, by the way, is better english than "saying nothing".

I wasn't recently playing the grammar game, just the "words have definitions so let's use their actual definitions" bit. :)
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Zoupa

Awww, widdle garby is mad. Here's your pacifier. It's cock-shaped, just how you like them.  :thumbsup:

Zoupa


garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

derspiess

Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2011, 12:15:50 PM
As it should be.  The baseline should not be the current level of spending, it should be expected future level of spending given the reasonable assumptions.

I might agree if the baseline were tied to, say, inflation.  But as it is, it's extremely misleading to the public and helps enable and conceal politicians' (on both sides of the aisle) spending addicition.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

MadImmortalMan

Debate happening. Word is the House has the support to pass. So we could see it soon.


http://www.cspan.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/

"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

Razgovory

Okay, Berkut.  I'll bite.  Which tribe are you suppose to be?  And please point me to exactly which sentence in Iormlund post that was untrue, and prove that it is untrue.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Berkut

#970
I am not in a tribe, of course*. Tribalism/partisanship is bad, that is my point. The world would be a better place if people made more of an effort to think objectively instead of just spouting off comments about how everyone in the "other" trbe is stupid/ignorant/deluded/whatever.

And why in the world would I care to try to "prove" anything to you? I know I never made the claim ascribed to me, whether YOU accept that or not is not really very important to me,.

*At least not in reference to this discussion. Of course I have my own groups I identify with and tend to agree with due to that identification (for example, I am an American, and hence tend to look on our actions with more favor than non-Americans), but this is an attriubte that should be recognized and minimized as much as possible. When it comes to politics, I make a very conscious effort to understand what motivates people and why they take the positions they take, even if I do not agree with them. Of course, it is much more intellectually simple to just decide that everything the other guy says is just lies and crazy talk, and then you can quit thinking.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned

MadImmortalMan

Boehner just told Diane Sawyer he's got the votes to pass the compromise.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

Sheilbh

Quote from: Faeelin on August 01, 2011, 10:21:19 AM
Here's a question for those who think Obama could have done better. How should he have held the line?
I don't think he could have unless Republicans were willing to split.  My view is that, as with TARP, raising the debt ceiling may be unpopular but it is, in every way, the right thing to do.  The people who are playing with it or using it as a negotiating tool or trying to vote it down are wrong.

What's really worrying is I'm begining to be one of those guys who think your system's broke.  I don't think you need spending cuts in the short-term - except for natural ones in defence as the wars wind down.  But you do need to be able to credibly set out medium to long term fiscal consolidation that will involve tax, Medicare and Social Security reform plus spending cuts.  I don't know that your systemright now is capable of that or anything else medium to long term.
Let's bomb Russia!

dps

Quote from: derspiess on August 01, 2011, 12:28:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 01, 2011, 12:15:50 PM
As it should be.  The baseline should not be the current level of spending, it should be expected future level of spending given the reasonable assumptions.

I might agree if the baseline were tied to, say, inflation.  But as it is, it's extremely misleading to the public and helps enable and conceal politicians' (on both sides of the aisle) spending addicition.

Yeah, when an increase in spending is presented as a cut, that's just doublespeak.

DontSayBanana

I love the combined rhetoric of forcing a balanced budget amendment along with the "no tax hikes" party line.  Are these guys completely unaware that taxes are going to have to be raised to balance the budget?
Experience bij!