So we hit the debt limit...

[mongers]

American Dream*

The US is a place full of people who envision themselves as the future rich.

The Rich have very effective PR and advertising companies.

[Razgovory]

What I've seen these past few months is unanimous House Republican opposition to tax increases and a willingness of the leader of the Democratic party to cut spending. What have you seen these past few months?

I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff in the past few months.  A Democratic Congress and Senate passing a bill to extend the Bush tax cuts for two more years and extend unemployment benefits to 99 weeks as a "second stimulus bill."  Repeated denunciaton of the cruelty and unfairness of the Ryan proposal to freeze Medicare and Medicaid.  Four rounds of government shutdown chicken in which each and every cut proposed was argued against.  A first counter-proposal from Obama that cut nothing and offered only to raise taxes on the forces of darkness.  And even now, after Obama's breakthrough proposal, Nancy Pelosi is still reciting lines about protecting the helpless people on fixed incomes.

What is your hard-on for the Ryan Plan?  Saying they are opposed the Ryan plan is not the same as saying they opposed all cuts.  The Ryan plan is not even a serious attempt, as most cuts are being kicked down the road by over a decade.  I find it unlikely that the congress adhering to a budget plan that doesn't bear fruit until 2030, which is when the budget is balanced.

And you are right, I do believe the Republicans are trying score political points.  They played the game of tax cuts and deregulation twice in the last 30 years.  It ended the same way both times, with a government bailout of financial institutions, a huge deficit, and a sharp recession.  How many times do they have to try the same stupid idea before it occurs to them it doesn't work.

I have often seen Republicans referring to welfare and entitlement programs as "bribes" for the electorate (particularly minorities), I take the Republicans at their word that they in fact believe this and I think it explains why they want to cut these programs when a Democrat is President and why they are less likely to cut them when a Republican is president.  They are opposed to a Democratic president benefiting from these electoral "bribes", but less so for a Republican.  I think they wish to cut government programs during a Obama's term to make him unpopular with those weak minded minorities who only want a bribe.

What strikes me as odd though, is that the moment that Obama (and Clinton) get elected the GOP goes back to concern about the debt guys like you come running back.  You're like an abused spouse who keeps letting in her husband back in when he promise to fly straight and not hit you anymore.  When President Perry or Romney comes into to office you just get beat all over again.

[DGuller]

What is it about American society and politics that makes removing tax breaks for people earning incomes 99% of your population is never going to make so contraversial?

Hyper-partisanship.  The trick is to grab the people with some hard stances on divisive social issues, like abortion or gay marriage.  Then, when you have them in your control, advocate for issues your really care about, like tax cuts for your campaign contributors. 

Since it's "their party" that's proposing it, they're going go along with it as long as they're provided with some kind of explanation for why the economic policies that are so against their interests are really in their interests.  The explanations don't have to make any logical sense, and most of them just cannot possibly make any sense, but that's not a problem.  They will believe you as long as you let them, and will become your fervent supporters.

[Admiral Yi]

iirc Obama campaigned on ending the tax breaks brought in under the Republicans for people earning 250+.

That's not the language he used.  He campaigned on *not* raising taxes for people earning less tha 250K, and on "eliminating tax breaks for corporations shipping jobs overseas."  It's interesting to me that he didn't go anywhere with that.  My guess is on further examination he learned that particular tax break was reasonable.

Back to the original question.  Why all the cultural horror over such a thing?

Well, as you can see from MIM's poll results, a slight majority of Americans are in favor of raising rates  on "millionaires and billionaires."

Then what the Fates and Moneys of the world say has some truth: country club Republicans are still an important political force, particularly at fund raising time.

I've gone on record several times as being in favor of raising *everyone's* taxes, of letting them rise back to the Clinton rates.  More for philosophical than economic reasons.  I think the Bernie Saunders wing of the Democratic party wants to raise taxes on the rich because they want to punish evil.  The rich caused the recession, the rich forced poor minorities to assume mortgages that were too large, the rich paid themselves gigantic bonuses with TARP money, etc, etc.  To me that's class warfare.  Also I think it's dangerous to create a system in which 99% of voters get to decide what kind of free money they will get from the state but don't ever face a bill for that free money.  I was and am generally supportive of Obamacare, but if we all benefit shouldn't we all contribute?  Finally there's the basic free market principle that a person is entitled to the fruit of their own labors.

[Admiral Yi]

What is your hard-on for the Ryan Plan?  Saying they are opposed the Ryan plan is not the same as saying they opposed all cuts.  The Ryan plan is not even a serious attempt, as most cuts are being kicked down the road by over a decade.  I find it unlikely that the congress adhering to a budget plan that doesn't bear fruit until 2030, which is when the budget is balanced.

And you are right, I do believe the Republicans are trying score political points.  They played the game of tax cuts and deregulation twice in the last 30 years.  It ended the same way both times, with a government bailout of financial institutions, a huge deficit, and a sharp recession.  How many times do they have to try the same stupid idea before it occurs to them it doesn't work.

I have often seen Republicans referring to welfare and entitlement programs as "bribes" for the electorate (particularly minorities), I take the Republicans at their word that they in fact believe this and I think it explains why they want to cut these programs when a Democrat is President and why they are less likely to cut them when a Republican is president.  They are opposed to a Democratic president benefiting from these electoral "bribes", but less so for a Republican.  I think they wish to cut government programs during a Obama's term to make him unpopular with those weak minded minorities who only want a bribe.

What strikes me as odd though, is that the moment that Obama (and Clinton) get elected the GOP goes back to concern about the debt guys like you come running back.  You're like an abused spouse who keeps letting in her husband back in when he promise to fly straight and not hit you anymore.  When President Perry or Romney comes into to office you just get beat all over again.

When the issue on the table is have Democrats been willing to make spending cuts, and you start talking about how terrible the Republicans are, that's called changing the subject.

[crazy canuck]

American Dream*

The US is a place full of people who envision themselves as the future rich.

The Rich have very effective PR and advertising companies.

But that is true in other countries and yet I think the US is the only place where this sort of visceral reaction against ending tax cuts for the rich (thanks for the clarification JR) would occur.

[The Minsky Moment]

But that is true in other countries and yet I think the US is the only place where this sort of visceral reaction against ending tax cuts for the rich (thanks for the clarification JR) would occur.

I don't think it is that visceral; what is "special" about America is the degree to which tax increases in general are perceived to be politically unacceptable.

[Razgovory]

What is your hard-on for the Ryan Plan?  Saying they are opposed the Ryan plan is not the same as saying they opposed all cuts.  The Ryan plan is not even a serious attempt, as most cuts are being kicked down the road by over a decade.  I find it unlikely that the congress adhering to a budget plan that doesn't bear fruit until 2030, which is when the budget is balanced.

And you are right, I do believe the Republicans are trying score political points.  They played the game of tax cuts and deregulation twice in the last 30 years.  It ended the same way both times, with a government bailout of financial institutions, a huge deficit, and a sharp recession.  How many times do they have to try the same stupid idea before it occurs to them it doesn't work.

I have often seen Republicans referring to welfare and entitlement programs as "bribes" for the electorate (particularly minorities), I take the Republicans at their word that they in fact believe this and I think it explains why they want to cut these programs when a Democrat is President and why they are less likely to cut them when a Republican is president.  They are opposed to a Democratic president benefiting from these electoral "bribes", but less so for a Republican.  I think they wish to cut government programs during a Obama's term to make him unpopular with those weak minded minorities who only want a bribe.

What strikes me as odd though, is that the moment that Obama (and Clinton) get elected the GOP goes back to concern about the debt guys like you come running back.  You're like an abused spouse who keeps letting in her husband back in when he promise to fly straight and not hit you anymore.  When President Perry or Romney comes into to office you just get beat all over again.

When the issue on the table is have Democrats been willing to make spending cuts, and you start talking about how terrible the Republicans are, that's called changing the subject.

There's not much to talk about with Democrats being willing to make cuts.  They are willing to make cuts and have stated so.

[The Minsky Moment]

My guess is on further examination he learned that particular tax break was reasonable.

very droll

[Admiral Yi]

very droll

I don't get it Joan.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't get it Joan.

There is no tax break for shipping jobs.

[Admiral Yi]

There is no tax break for shipping jobs.

Surely that particular line must have had *some* basis in fact, no?

[Valmy]

Hmmm  so a majority oppose cuts to all the stated expenditures and a majority oppose any raises in taxes...

USA!  USA!  USA!

I think that position is one that unites all the peoples of the world

[grumbler]

There is no tax break for shipping jobs.

Surely that particular line must have had *some* basis in fact, no?

Information No results found for "eliminating tax breaks for corporations shipping jobs overseas"

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22eliminating+tax+breaks+for+corporations+shipping+jobs+overseas%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I think some guy just made it up today on Languish.  Two guesses as to what that guy's Yi was.

[grumbler]

"We can end tax breaks for companies that ship our jobs overseas and give those breaks to companies that create good jobs with decent wages here in America," Obama said last month in Lorain, Ohio.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-03-20-corporate-tax-offshoring_N.htm

Maybe you can quote him accurately if you use google.com