In Greece, austerity kindles deep discontent, breakdown in rule of law

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Bankers are not only evil, they are incredibly stupid, running cons they know will inevitably result in their own loss.

Exactly.  They make such great super-villains because they behave, in real life, exactly the way they do in comic books.  Helkl, if you drop a banker into a canyon 1,000 feet deep, he will just end up climbing out of a baker-shaped hole in the ground (or, at least, that is what the ambassador from Acme assured me at lunch Tuesday).

We only have to worry if the bankers get frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their frickin' heads.

is that the scuttlebut at the ambassadorial dinnerparties?

[Iormlund]

Iorm, the measures on Greece have nothing to do with punishing Greeks. Trust me, all european governments are well aware of who truly created this mess (the bankers), and do not harbour any resentment towards the Greek (and Irish, Portuguese, Spanish) populations.

Yeah, and that's why Germany and France and Belgium are also on the verge of default.   The Greeks (and the Irish, Portuguese, and Spanish) have nobody but to blame but themselves.

As Martim has mentioned, Belgium is in very dire straits.

As for Germany and France, they were the FIRST to break the Stability Pact long ago, and the ECBs fixation on restarting their anemic, welfare-ridden economies was precisely the reason peripheral economies had such access to easy money.

There's blame enough for everyone here. The ECB for not paying attention to overheating economies, credit rating agencies for spectacularly failing in pretty much everything, banks for lending money without assessing the risk, national politicians for not enacting needed reforms or adequately shifting the influx of credit away from real state bubbles, individual speculators, etc ...

You are confusing a cash flow problem (Iceland) with a debt and work ethic problem (P.I.G.S.)....

This is precisely the kind of attitude I was referring to when I was answering to Yi.

I know it comes as a bit of a shock, but setting aside widely publicized exceptions like public servants, working hours are MUCH longer in PIGS economies than "hard-working" countries like Germany, Denmark or the Netherlands.
And I believe those statistics because they match my experience. For example it is pretty much impossible to locate anyone at our suppliers in those countries when something fails a Friday afternoon and a whole factory comes to a halt.

[Viking]

You are confusing a cash flow problem (Iceland) with a debt and work ethic problem (P.I.G.S.)....

This is precisely the kind of attitude I was referring to when I was answering to Yi.

I know it comes as a bit of a shock, but setting aside widely publicized exceptions like public servants, working hours are MUCH longer in PIGS economies than "hard-working" countries like Germany, Denmark or the Netherlands.
And I believe those statistics because they match my experience. For example it is pretty much impossible to locate anyone at our suppliers in those countries when something fails a Friday afternoon and a whole factory comes to a halt.

Ah, so you define work ethic as being present after 3:15 on friday afternoons? The work ethic issue I refer to is the one you refer to above when you define (Ayn Rand style) Greek society into producers and leeches as belonging to the leeches. The Norwegian might go home at 3:15, but he did work hard all 6 hours 15 minutes of his work day and spent less than 30 minutes at lunch.

[citizen k]

For example it is pretty much impossible to locate anyone at our suppliers in those countries when something fails a Friday afternoon and a whole factory comes to a halt.

They want their siesta, too.

[Iormlund]

The Norwegian might go home at 3:15, but he did work hard all 6 hours 15 minutes of his work day and spent less than 30 minutes at lunch.

Right, while the Spaniard was napping on a bench under the shade of his giant sombrero.


Get off your fucking high horse.

[Viking]

The Norwegian might go home at 3:15, but he did work hard all 6 hours 15 minutes of his work day and spent less than 30 minutes at lunch.

Right, while the Spaniard was napping on a bench under the shade of his giant sombrero.


Get off your fucking high horse.

I tried, but my spanish sub contractor that is supposed to help me with that took a siesta from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM and I wanted to get off my fucking high horse at 10:15. Come on, there I was, the tourist trying to find a chemist/pharmacy at noon to buy some after sun and nothing was open. Later that day I tried to find some food, but all the restaurants were closed, only McDonalds was open!!!!11111oneoneoneoeneon

The siesta is REAL.

[Iormlund]

Pharmacies are regulated by law. I ASSURE you, there was at least one open pharmacy a few blocks from your location at any given time. You can find their locations in maps both at the Internet and on computer displays at any pharmacy.
As for your other example, I can't even begin to comprehend how can you fail to find somewhere to eat in Spain. It's a feat in itself to be able to avoid every single bar or restaurant in this country.

[Viking]

Pharmacies are regulated by law. I ASSURE you, there was at least one open pharmacy a few blocks from your location at any given time. You can find their locations in maps both at the Internet and on computer displays at any pharmacy.
As for your other example, I can't even begin to comprehend how can you fail to find somewhere to eat in Spain. It's a feat in itself to be able to avoid every single bar or restaurant on this country.

Oh, so my anecdotal experience cannot be used to expand into a general understanding of society, just like your suppliers in Greece?

[Iormlund]

Oh, so my anecdotal experience cannot be used to expand into a general understanding of society, just like your suppliers in Greece?

Your anecdotal experience merely points out you cannot properly read maps or recognize a restaurant.

My anecdotal experiences not only match statistics but involve actual engineers in relevant positions. And I know I reached them because they are more than willing to return your calls ... the next workday morning.

[garbon]

is that the scuttlebut at the ambassadorial dinnerparties?

I'll show you some scuttlebutt!

[Razgovory]

Imagine you're the manager of a big investment fund/Bank director. There is a world crisis and you need to protect your investiments. Where do you pull the plug first?

1) Big countries with large and diverse economies and 'AAA' ratings, which cannot collapse without putting everyone at risk.
2) Small countries with smaller and less diverse economies, with less than top-notch ratings whose collapse does not (appearently) creates such danger.

When credit contracts, small nations (bar exceptions like Luxembourg and Switzerland) are the first ones to take it up the chin.

Er, this isn't some kind of conspiracy.  They aren't looking to destroy countries.  There is no cabal of bankers looking to "pull the plug".  They sure as hell don't want Greece to default.  What is happening is the Greeks simply borrowed more money then they can repay.  Nobody made them do this.  Nor has anyone made the Greeks lie about their economic status (which they have done for nearly a decade).  I'm sure it's very comforting to abdicate responsibility, but these fairy tales about evil bankers don't impress anyone.

[Jacob]

As I understand it, the issue isn't whether there's a break in the middle of the day or not, or whether people leave early on Friday afternoon.

The issue is entrenched cronyism and absent/ counterproductive/ poorly enforced regulation: http://europeanbusinessreview.blogspot.com/2011/06/blog-post_09.html

It's in Greek, but someone did a translation:

THE GREECE OF 'UNCLE' KOSTAS IS GOING AWAY

The nostalgics & the actors of the favors-economy & customer-based political system ought to realize that they have bankrupted us. So, off they should go with our blessings...

by Athan. X. Panadropoulou

I met him in Andravida <a town in Peloponnisos>, 'Uncle' Kostas, after 20 or more years. He was at the kafenio where we first met. Party-organizer for the area, the now 80 years old farmer told me the times are changing.

He himself made a small fortune through agricultural subsidies from the EEC. One daughter was appointed by the local MP <parliament representative> at ATE <Agricultural Bank> & the other one works at the tax agency of Pyrgos <another town of Peloponnisos>. His son he managed to have appointed at the PPC <the country's state power company> of Patra <yet another town of Peloponnisos>, where he "excels as a union representative". Of his 2 sons-in-law one is a lawyer & the other an agriculturist at the Ministry of Agriculture. His daughter-in-law is a teacher at the elementary school of Gastouni <town, Peloponnisos, you know the drill>.

"Things were different in older times", 'Uncle' Kostas confessed to me. "The MPs could help us. But now...". "But well", I tell him, "if I understand correctly. 'Uncle' Kostas. all of you, with one exception, are state employees. You pulled two dimes from the EU grants & the rest of your family are employed in the government & public companies .... ". "So what, is that bad? I struggled for the party & my children support it. Shouldn't it do something for us? Without the votes we collect CH.G. <initials of some politicians or another> would never get elected as an MP. At the last elections he got voted-in for the third time and from what I see and learn he's been profiting well. "

"How many appartment do you have, 'Uncle' Kostas?". "Two in Pyrgos, two in Patra, and my house here. We have the fields as well, but no one is concerned with them anymore so I'm trying to sell them to anyone who wants to open a supermarket". "Have you taken any loans from any banks, 'Uncle' Kostas?". "Nah, now that i have paid-off the one from ATE and the one from ETE <National Bank>. I had gotten almost free loans from ATE and the 20% of those was stricken-off because of the fires. But the future is not looking bright. I get two pensions and I'm fearful I'll lose them... Those thieves are to blame for the bleak state we've reached...".

From 1982 to 1997 'Uncle' Kostas received 620,000 Euros from Community Funds. He borrowed from the ATE and ETE banks about an equal amount. He never paid anything in taxes, he receives a 2,350 Euros per month pension, he has a revenue of 1,100 Euros from two taxis he leases-off & during summer he rents to Germans three undeclared rooms he has in Katakolon <more Peloponnisos places>. During the period of 1975-1985 3 million Drachmas were stricken-off his loans to ATE and he collected some 500,000 for natural disasters.

"You made it fine, 'Uncle' Costas," I say to my partner. "What are you seeing your grandchildren doing?". "I don't see them staying here. The Greece we knew is finished, is leaving. And with it the most capable will also leave. Anyway, we will not be here to see the continuation. " "Yes, you're right" i answer. "Our departure is the most certain thing ...".

P.S. 'Uncle' Kostas -righteously, of course - is one of the "indignants". <the people who are up at arms, figuratively or literally at the streets, about the whole situation>

[Viking]

Oh, so my anecdotal experience cannot be used to expand into a general understanding of society, just like your suppliers in Greece?

Your anecdotal experience merely points out you cannot properly read maps or recognize a restaurant.

My anecdotal experiences not only match statistics but involve actual engineers in relevant positions. And I know I reached them because they are more than willing to return your calls ... the next workday morning.

So your argument is that you are smart and I am stupid and therefore you are right and I am wrong?

I'm not going to bother with linking to OECD reports or link to the consensus of almost all economy journalists in all the languages I speak. I'm just going to add a predjudice for you that I'll apply to your next post regardless of topic.

[Slargos]

The rule of thumb is: weak links break faster. Which is why the countries with smaller economies are breaking first (before Southern Europe we had the very nordic Iceland collapse, and before that the Baltic States went into a Depression).

Though, in our case we identified the problem, developed a plan to deal with it, gained popular consent by means of reasoned political discourse and modification of the plan, implemented the plan and now we'll be able to pay off all our debt with the property confiscated from the banks and the Icelandic economy is on it's way up again well before the P.I.G.S. even hit bottom.

http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,3746,en_2649_201185_43946384_1_1_1_1,00.html

Iceland is resolving the economic problems left by the financial crisis. It is well advanced in implementing the comprehensive programme agreed with the IMF to overcome these problems. Iceland is slowly emerging from a deep recession following the collapse of its main banks. The economy stopped contracting by late 2010 and a consumption and business investment-led recovery is projected to gather momentum, lifting economic growth to 3 per cent by 2012. Inflation is projected to remain low and the underlying current account surplus to be sustained.

Protestant work ethic as opposed to Latin Sloth. 

[Iormlund]

You can link at OECD reports all right Viking. Where do you think I looked to find out working hour statistics?

Jake, precisely what I am trying to convey is that there is a dual system in place in these countries. The disparity between public workers and private employees is very noticeable in Spain and from the sound of it completely out of hand in Greece. But these are a minority (in Greece a very sizable minority). You can't put everyone on the same boat.