Teaching the Civil War, 150 Years Later...THE MEGATHREAD

[Lettow77]

 Are you actually quoting Longstreet's impudent complaining to explain away how Longstreet's efforts were doomed to failure even if he had put in an honest effort?

That said, we have a misunderstanding. Longstreet was criminally tardy on the second day, when the battle was still in the air. This quote refers to the third day.


By the third day, the best thing was to pack in and go home. Lee had a commendable faith in his men and the favor of an almighty God that misled him to contesting the issue anyway, and tragedy ensued. The blame for the third day is overwhelmingly Lee's.

[Tamas]

This isn't the grumbler I know. Where are the long winded retorts?

WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE REAL GRUMBLER?

DO WE HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER? CLEAR THE AIR!

I grumblered away grumbler! 

[Habbaku]

New problem chief, the Confederate's defeat at Gettysburg can in part be blamed on Lee not listening to Longstreet's advice.

Or in Longstreet's unenthusiastic and flawed execution of Lee's orders.

"[N]o 15,000 men ever arrayed for battle can take that position."  An enthusiastic and eager-to-follow-orders Longstreet (assuming that's the problem, which I don't believe) would've resulted in more pointless losses for the South.

I bet 15,000 SS with Tigers mounting 10.5cm guns (two each) could have.

Only if led by Stuart.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think Tamas is on to something.  If Lee's necromantic powers had been greater, he not only could have solicited Jackson's advice at critical times at Gettysburg, he might have been able to revive Pickett's entire division for another go.   But yet again, the Confederacy's embrace of traditional values -- in this case its aversion to withcraft, voodoo, and zombies -- prevented it from seizing what could have been a decisive advantage.

[Lettow77]

himself had funded the design of out of forsight for the threat the Confederacy could become.

The Confederacy: Jefferson is President in name only, having given the souls of the Confederate military and control of the land itself to Hell. Until the day of the Confederacy's victory (over the world? over god?) he's a hostage. Control of the now tainted Confederate territory and military is fought over by the "Demon Generals": Samuel Cooper (a manifested demon using the name of the host he sprang from), Albert Sidney Johnston (a possessed corpse), P.G.T. Beauregard (whose skin is being worn by a demon), J.B. Hood (under the influence of demonic body transplants, only his head and heart remaining his own), Bedford Forrest (his own evil side drawn out by an evil spirit inhabiting his sabre), J.E.B. Stuart (being ridden by a whole host of evil spirits), John S. Mosby (whose being possessed by a sadistic damned soul whose made his own deal while in Hell). Other luminaries include: Carmille Marie, a French born general whose bargained for return of his soul in exchange for using his occult knowledge to train Confederate cultists in black magic; Lloyd J. Beall, whose gone "too mad to possess" and leads the all-human suicide corps, the CSMarines; Benjamin Palmer, firey preacher who united the southern presbyterian church for secession and slavery, whose mind and faith were ripped to shreds by the Confederacy's demon reign and has since become chief heretic of the Confederate cultists; and most emminently, Stonewall Jackson, brought back from the dead (and slowly turning to stone) and forced to lead the peversely reanimated soldiers of his "Second Corps". Under the leadership of Hell the Confederacy has achieved riotous success in expanding their territory. With each push of the borders more American landscape becames poisoned by the infernal influence; most of the South is unrecognizable, and even the land sitting on the border between the pollution-spewing factory cities of the Union is becoming cracked and barren, razed from constant struggle between CSA and Union forces. However, as much ground as they'v gained, it's held together by a tenuos thread. The Confederacy is even less of a coherent structure than it's former set up. The 7 Demon Generals and lesser renegade devils have split up the Armies of the Confederacy, the Provisional Armies, and the State Militias, as well as the partisan bands; roughly between each other. The CSA is these days less a Confederation of states and more a Confederation of military powers that are tenuously allied posturing egomaniacs, fairly standard operating procedure for Hell.

:3

[Berkut]

Could the South have won the war if Lee was a voodoo witch doctor?

Discuss.

[Razgovory]

New problem chief, the Confederate's defeat at Gettysburg can in part be blamed on Lee not listening to Longstreet's advice.

Or in Longstreet's unenthusiastic and flawed execution of Lee's orders.

"[N]o 15,000 men ever arrayed for battle can take that position."  An enthusiastic and eager-to-follow-orders Longstreet (assuming that's the problem, which I don't believe) would've resulted in more pointless losses for the South.

In the film Longstreet advocates withdrawal after the first day.  I don't know if that's true, I do believe he advocated a flanking maneuver on the 3rd day.  Don't know if that would have worked, but we know that attacking the center did not work.

[grumbler]

One odd thing about the film, is that while the Southern Commanders get a lot of screen time their Union counterparts get very little.  General Meade only appears in one scene of the film.  Hancock is shown a bit more (and he was de facto Union commander for much of the battle), but still not as much Lee, Longstreet, and Pickett.

Chamberlain is the main Union voice in this book and movie, as Longstreet is the Confederates'.  You get a lot more of the common Union soldier POV and the Confederate command POV.  The book was deliberately designed that way, as those were the groups Shara thought most responsible for the outcome of the war.

[HVC]

Could the South have won the war if Lee was a voodoo witch doctor?

Discuss.

aww, you fixed it just as i hit quote. had a witty rejoinder set up and everything

[Razgovory]

Could the South have won the war if Lee was a voodoo witch doctor?

Discuss.

Doesn't really help the leaders of Haiti.

[derspiess]

I watched Gettysburg this evening.  Hadn't seen it in a while.  I hadn't realized before how Lee comes off as a delusional old kook.

Odd-- that was the first impression I got when I first saw it in the theater.  Particularly with the eerie music they played when he was explaining his plan for Pickett's Charge to Longstreet-- almost made Lee look like a psychopath.  Not to mention the look on Tom Berenger's face.

I think they overplayed that, and I would not have picked Martin Sheen to play Lee, but Sheen did a lot better in that role than I expected.  Tom Berenger was awesome, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm a Longstreet fanboi

[Syt]

Could the South have won the war if Lee was a voodoo witch doctor?

Discuss.

Undead Confederate soldiers? Instant win for the South.

[Syt]

Btw, Iced Earth did a decent musical treatment of Gettysburg (obviously influenced by the movie):

July 1st
July 2nd
July 3rd

http://12. The Devil To Pay

[July 1st, 1863]

In July 1863
A nation torn in tragedy
A trick of fate, two great armies merge
Gods of war at Gettysburg
Devastation lies ahead
50,000 bodies litter the land
Hell rages three full days
The reaper sows, there's the devil to pay

The pressure's on and the reb's attack
The yanks must hold, They can't fall back
Just two brigades, 2000 strong
Against 20,000 they can't hold long

General Reynolds makes his way
Expect no mercy from the iron brigade
Until he shows they're on their own
But Buford's men have a will of stone

Bayonets gleam in the morning sun
Smoke and fire belching from their guns
Another volley and again they strike
Thousands more comin' down Chambersburg pike

[Chorus:]
This tragedy and what it brings
All the devastation
(The reaper has his way)
Men will kill, Blood will spill
To preserve the nation
(There's the devil to pay)

South of town down the Emmitsburg road
The first corps are starting to show
For Buford's men, they're here just in time
The desperate need to strengthen the line

Bodies dropping the blue and the grey
Muskets fire and cannon blaze
The union fights defending the town
But they're outnumbered and losing ground

From the north and the west more rebels arrive
Thousands more and the fight multiplies
McPhearson's ridge and the black hats strike
A rebel sharpshooter takes Reynolds life

[Repeat Chorus]

Attack! Attack! General Lee gives command
They're overwhelmed, The situation demands
The federals retreat and rush out of town
But they have fortified and saved the high ground

The day ends in victory for the south
Lee's as convinced as God's will is profound
They are invincible and their cause is just
But Longstreet is cautious and lacking in trust

Across the way the union digs in
The round tops, Cemetery Ridge and out to Culps Hill
Their lines are strong, no denying they'll stay
When the confederates strike
There'll be the devil to pay

[Repeat Chorus]


13. Hold At All Costs

[July 2nd, 1863]

Just a mile or so away
Is my dearest friend in this world.
He wears the Blue and I the Grey
And god it hurts me so
The last time we were together
I grabbed his hand and I pledged
If I ever draw my sword on you
May the good lord strike me dead.

The union flank's in trouble
To the round top on the double
A bad decision, insubordination
Exposed our lie in a dangerous way

The burden lies upon us
Surrender is not an option
We are the flank and if we break
The union crumbles, We could lose the war!

Down below's the carnage
The rebel's charging onward
Push the slaughter forward, the peach orchard.
Through the wheat field and devils den

The valour of the Texans
And Alabama's best men
Their Unrelenting and Devastating
The last full measure of devotion's clear.

[Chorus:]
We know what we're made of.
When up against all odds we hold our line
For the cause that we so love
We must hold at all cost
We know what we're made of
when our nation needs us we'll stay the cause
for the union we so love
We must hold at all costs!

Wave after wave they're coming
Their power must be waning!
We're out of ammo, we can't fall back, no!
One desperate measure, a means to end

On their next wave we charge them
There is no other option
Disconcert them, force submission
On my command, fix bayonets!

[Chorus:]
We know what we're made of.
When up against all odds we hold our line
For the cause that we so love
We must hold at all cost
We know what we're made of
when our nation needs us we'll stay the cause
for the union we so love
We must hold at all costs!

[Chorus:]
We know what we're made of.
When up against all odds we hold our line
For the cause that we so love
We must hold at all cost
We know what we're made of
when our nation needs us we'll stay the cause
for the union we so love
We must hold at all costs!


14. High Water Mark

[July 3rd, 1863]

[1. Cannonade/Intro]

[Instrumental]

[2. The Burden of Command]

[Lee:]
"It Was Very Close Yesterday
I Thought For Sure They Would Break
But This Attack That I Have Planned
A Massive Strike Across Open Land
In The Center They Will Break (Will They Break?)
But Plan It Well, Everything's At Stake
We'll Hit 'Em Hard, Not A Silent Gun
Before The Infantry's Begun"

"Execute It Well, We Risk Everything"
"It's In God's Hands Now

[Longstreet:]
"General Lee I Must Tell You Straight
I Believe This Attack Will Fail
No 15,000 Men Ever Made
Will Overtake That Ridge Today
A Mile Charge Over Open Ground
With Yankee Cannon Gunnin' Us Down"

[Lee:]
"We Do Our Duty, We Do What We Must
And In My Plan You Will Trust"

(Thousands Die, On This Day)
"Execute It Well, We Risk Everything"
"It's In God's Hands Now"

[3. The Last Full Measure]

The Rebel Cannon Break The Silence
150 Guns Make Up Their Cannonade

They Must Destroy The Union Center
Before The Infantry Can Launch Their Grand Assault

The Yankees Are Returning Fire
(The Earth Shakes Violently)
In Washington D.C. Lincoln Feels The Earth Shake

What Happens Here This Day
The Fate Of This Nation
In The Balance It Will Hang
Consumed With The Pain
The Courage Of The Blue
The Valor Of The Grey
So Very Sad But True
Consumed With The Pain

The Virginians Are The Chosen
In Wait Behind The Trees On Seminary Ridge

Longstreet's Slow To Give The Order
The Lines Emerge, A Mile, 15,000 Men

The Charge Begins In All It's Grandeur
(To The Copse Of Trees)
For Many Of These Men They Know It Is Their Last

The Slaughter Now Ensues
Bodies Fall Like Rain
They Valiantly Pursue
Yet Doomed To Remain
At The Double Quick They Charge
The Canister Rips Through Them
To The Mouth Of hell They March
Glory, The Only Gain

[4. Charge!!]

[Armistead:]
"We're Almost There My Boys
I've Never Served With Finer
We Must Push Forward Boys
And Bayonet The Yankee Tyrants
To The Copse Of Trees We Charge
To Crush The Union Center
And When They Turn And Run
An Open Road Leads Us To Freedom"

[5. The Melee]

[Lee:]
"It's Over Now We Are Retreating
I Never Thought That We'd Be Beaten
All This Blood Is On My Hands
The Thousands Dead Due To My Plan
I Am Responsible, All Of It Is My Fault
I Thought Us Invincible
Is This God's Will After All?
I Look Across This Blood Soaked Land
All This Blood Is On My Hands
God Forgive Me, Please Forgive Me
It's All My Fault, The Blood Is On My Hands"

[Lettow77]

 What is this I don't even

Thanks syt thanks alot

A++ would listen again

[Habbaku]

What is this I don't even