Teaching the Civil War, 150 Years Later...THE MEGATHREAD

[Lettow77]

 Inbred aristocrats and the plain folk

[Berkut]

The second manassas campaign is hardly "less than impressive."

But, a competent union commander should've crushed the confederates.  Even leading inferior troops like foreign hirelings and pasty yankee tinkerers, Lee would have conquered Richmond by the fall of '62.

Agreed.  Bad though his troops would have been, against the inbred aristocrats and the pigfucking peasants he would have been up against, he would have gone through the Rebs like crap through a goose.

This.

[CountDeMoney]

Inbred aristocrats and the plain folk

I hope your family is raped by negro soldiers.

[jimmy olsen]

Inbred aristocrats and the plain folk

Keep on trucking you crazy bird.

[KRonn]

The American Civil War still rages on, and on, and on!!!     

[Viking]

Name one american general that performed badly in mexico?

Gideon Pillow?  Just a guess, he sucked in the Civil War.

Who?

I googled him. What a dick. I'll archive that name for a time when I have to eulogize a prat and say, "well, at least he wasn't as much of a dick as Gideon Pillow."

[Scipio]

By his own account, Longstreet knew that Lee's singular flaw was that when he got his blood up over the enemy, there was no talking him out of the attack.

The first day was bad luck.  The second day was *this* close.  There was going to be no talking Lee out of the attack on the third day. Absolutely no way, no matter how much Longstreet counselled against it.

To hang it on Longstreet for failing to talk Lee out of something there was no chance of talking him out of is bullshit.  And to think Longstreet in any way sabotaged or purposefully delayed the 2nd day attack on the Round Tops is even more bullshit.

I recommend the upcoming 8-volume magnum opus, Robert E. Lee at War: The Mind and Method of a Great American Soldier, soon to be released by Military History Press.

There's sure to be nothing in there that's not already contained in Lee's Lieutenants.

[Ed Anger]

For the wargamers, the Davy Twiggs  rule from Gringo!

UNUSUAL EVENTS AND RULES
Duty Calls #1: Ole Davy Twiggs
This rule concerns one of those tangential stories that
make reading about wars and the people who fought
them so much less depressing than it ought to be. Seems
that the irrepressible Twiggs had this great fear of getting
a bullet in the belly and dying from, not the actual wound, but
the infection that would quickly result. Ole Davy, who was not the
Mensa representative at Monterey, theorized that if he emptied his
colon of all matter there would be a much lesser chance of succumbing
to such a horrible death. It, therefore, occurred to him that
taking a laxative right before the battle would allow him to enter the
fray clean as a whistle, at least "colonically." Then, extending that
line of thinking to the sort of conclusion Ole Davy often came up
with, he figured an extra dose would keep him extra spanking clean
...cleaner than clean, as it were.
Doesn't take too long to figure out where Twiggs spent the 21st: in
back of his tent, glued to his seat, lending depth to the phrase hors
de combat.
For those of you wishing to simulate this, at the start of each Period
of play, roll a die for Twiggs. If the die roll is odd, Davy's on the
throne and is unavailable for the day's events. Garland now commands
his division, with Major Lear running the 3/1 brigade. If
even, duty has called (ahem), and Twiggs is fit to command. Well,
he never was really fit to command—but at least he's upright. This
can only happen once.

[Berkut]

The first day was bad luck.  The second day was *this* close.  There was going to be no talking Lee out of the attack on the third day. Absolutely no way, no matter how much Longstreet counselled against it.

The South was not close to winning that battle on Day 1 or Day 2. Day 1 went about as well as could be hoped for the South, they broke the Unions initial positions and forced them back through the town.

Day 2 saw them getting some pretty huge breaks, and the only reason they did as well as they did was some pretty stupid decisions on the part of some of the Union commanders. Even at that, the "crisis" of Day 2 is largely over-stated.

[Caliga]

For the wargamers, the Davy Twiggs  rule from Gringo!

I wonder if that's a Richard Berg design.

[grumbler]

The South was not close to winning that battle on Day 1 or Day 2. Day 1 went about as well as could be hoped for the South, they broke the Unions initial positions and forced them back through the town.

Day 2 saw them getting some pretty huge breaks, and the only reason they did as well as they did was some pretty stupid decisions on the part of some of the Union commanders. Even at that, the "crisis" of Day 2 is largely over-stated.

Not only that, but had Longstreet attacked sooner, Sickles would have taken his position atop the Round Tops instead of sticking his troops out to be slaughtered, and there would have been nothing even close to a crisis on the second day.

[grumbler]

By his own account, Longstreet knew that Lee's singular flaw was that when he got his blood up over the enemy, there was no talking him out of the attack.

The first day was bad luck.  The second day was *this* close.  There was going to be no talking Lee out of the attack on the third day. Absolutely no way, no matter how much Longstreet counselled against it.

To hang it on Longstreet for failing to talk Lee out of something there was no chance of talking him out of is bullshit.  And to think Longstreet in any way sabotaged or purposefully delayed the 2nd day attack on the Round Tops is even more bullshit.

I recommend the upcoming 8-volume magnum opus, Robert E. Lee at War: The Mind and Method of a Great American Soldier, soon to be released by Military History Press.

There's sure to be nothing in there that's not already contained in Lee's Lieutenants.

  True.  Lee's Lieutenants contains only history and opinion, and these books will contain nothing more.

[Berkut]

The South was not close to winning that battle on Day 1 or Day 2. Day 1 went about as well as could be hoped for the South, they broke the Unions initial positions and forced them back through the town.

Day 2 saw them getting some pretty huge breaks, and the only reason they did as well as they did was some pretty stupid decisions on the part of some of the Union commanders. Even at that, the "crisis" of Day 2 is largely over-stated.

Not only that, but had Longstreet attacked sooner, Sickles would have taken his position atop the Round Tops instead of sticking his troops out to be slaughtered, and there would have been nothing even close to a crisis on the second day.

Indeed.

I've always thought even the RT "crisis" was a heroic stand that in sober analysis probably was not strictly necessary. The Union positions strength was its interior lines. Had Little Round Top fallen...well, it's not like the South actually had anything like enough troops there to actually accomplish anything, and the Union had more reinforcements coming up the road all the time.

I suspect all that would have happened would be that the Union would refuse the flank, shove in some reinforcements to check whatever tired and exhausted remnants of the Southern attack straggled in, and it would have had no real effect on the outcome of the battle. It's not like there was a couple fresh rebel divisions waiting to exploit a potential collapse of the left flank.

It's one of those things where both sides are happy exaggerating the importance after the fact. Which isn't to say that the stand of the 20th Maine was not impressive, just that is probably was not really decisive.

[Valmy]

That was always kind of an elephant in the room.   50% of Hood's division was not going to roll up the entire Federal line.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm not sure I buy that.  Artillery posted on LRT enfilades the entire Union position on Missionary Ridge.  Plus the only road the Union controlled was the one leading from Gettysburg to the southeast.  LRT threatens that.  So the best case for the Union would probably have been a messy and difficult disengagemnt to Meade's original line of defense further south.