[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

We need a DD

And Caliga will be in charge of verification.

[crazy canuck]

I heard some clips from Justin's speech about the what he says is the Conservatives attack on all Muslims.

 

There are some very good points one could make to criticize the positions taken by the Conservatives in relation to their attempts to regulate how people dress in the public sphere and this new security Bill.  Unfortunately Justin didn't make any of them.  Instead he descended into inane hyperbole.  Also he seems to have forgotten that he has already decided that the Liberals will support the new Bill. 

If Mulcair, or someone of his ability, was the leader of the Liberals they would probably be in a very good position in the next election.  As it stands now the Liberals deserve to be punished for putting someone who's only attribute was being the child of a Prime Minister in that position.

[Grey Fox]

Is Justin going to be a greater disaster than Stéphane Dion or Ignatieff?

Seriously, the Liberal party can't choose a good leader.

[crazy canuck]

Is Justin going to be a greater disaster than Stéphane Dion?

Imo he already is.  Say what you will about Dion (and I will likely agree) but at least he had intellectual heft.  His main problem was he was an academic who was not suited for a leadership role.

re your edit:

Iggy was probably the best leader the Liberals have had since Trudeau.  His problem is that the Conservatives effectively characterized him early on as an elite outsider and Iggy could never convince people otherwise.

[Grey Fox]

Because, for once, it was the truth.

Not old enough to remember Original Trudeau but Chrétien was(is) a good leader. He kept everyone inline.

[Barrister]

Is Justin going to be a greater disaster than Stéphane Dion?

Imo he already is.  Say what you will about Dion (and I will likely agree) but at least he had intellectual heft.  His main problem was he was an academic who was not suited for a leadership role.

re your edit:

Iggy was probably the best leader the Liberals have had since Trudeau.  His problem is that the Conservatives effectively characterized him early on as an elite outsider and Iggy could never convince people otherwise.

Both Dion and Ignatieff were very smart and capable people.  I didn't care for the policies they were proposing or the party they represented, but they were decent men.

Trudeau is just an intellectual featherweight in comparison.

Unlike CC however I am not convinced that voters will punish the Liberals for their choice of leader.

[Jacob]

Because, for once, it was the truth.

Not old enough to remember Original Trudeau but Chrétien was(is) a good leader. He kept everyone inline.

Yeah... I'm sure you can find all kinds of things to criticize Chrétien for, but he was pretty effective as leader of the Liberals IMO.

[Barrister]

Because, for once, it was the truth.

Not old enough to remember Original Trudeau but Chrétien was(is) a good leader. He kept everyone inline.

Yeah... I'm sure you can find all kinds of things to criticize Chrétien for, but he was pretty effective as leader of the Liberals IMO.

He was so twisted and corrupt he needed a corkscrew to put on his pants in the morning.

He also benefited from a divided opposition for his entire time in power.

He nearly lost Quebec in 1995.

His greatest achievement, balancing the books, was due to his finance minister.

But other than that, though, sure he was a fine leader.

[crazy canuck]

Because, for once, it was the truth.

Not old enough to remember Original Trudeau but Chrétien was(is) a good leader. He kept everyone inline.

Chretien benefited greatly from having no opposition at all for much of his time as PM.  The Conservatives were utterly destroyed and a viable opposition did not coalesce again until the Conservative party merged with the Reformers, or whatever they were calling themselves at the time.

@ Jacob, name one thing you can recall that made Chretien an effective leader.  Under his leadership the Liberals engaged in activities that gave rise to the sponsorship scandals that all but destroyed the Liberals.  Under his leadership there was internecine fighting with the Martin supporters.  The only thing he really did was win elections - which any Liberal (even Justin) could have done during that period of time. 

[crazy canuck]

Unlike CC however I am not convinced that voters will punish the Liberals for their choice of leader.

I said they deserve to be punished.  I said nothing about whether I was convinced they would be.

[Jacob]

He was so twisted and corrupt he needed a corkscrew to put on his pants in the morning.

The election is long over, no need to keep the smear job going.

[crazy canuck]

He was so twisted and corrupt he needed a corkscrew to put on his pants in the morning.

The election is long over, no need to keep the smear job going.

Your memory of the corruption in the Liberal party under Chretien is short.

[viper37]

I admit I haven't been paying my full attention to this bill, and I also haven't read all of it, but what exactly is so worrysome to all?

The lack of oversight. 

compared to the US, sure, but compared to what we have now, for current operations or RCMP and SCRS/CSIS, what would change?

[crazy canuck]

I admit I haven't been paying my full attention to this bill, and I also haven't read all of it, but what exactly is so worrysome to all?

The lack of oversight. 

compared to the US, sure, but compared to what we have now, for current operations or RCMP and SCRS/CSIS, what would change?

But that is the issue, we are now moving to more of a US model for intelligence gathering and counter espionage.  The current operational mandate is changing without a change to oversight of those new powers.

If you want to get an idea of the magnitude of the change pay attention to what the RCMP are saying about their need for additional funding to carry out the new responsibilities under the proposed Bill.  And that is just the RCMP!

[viper37]

@ Jacob, name one thing you can recall that made Chretien an effective leader.  Under his leadership the Liberals engaged in activities that gave rise to the sponsorship scandals that all but destroyed the Liberals.  Under his leadership there was internecine fighting with the Martin supporters.  The only thing he really did was win elections - which any Liberal (even Justin) could have done during that period of time. 

He kept everyone in line and managed to win majority government with the exact same platform 2 times in a row and a slightly modified version the 3rd time.  He nearly lost Quebec in 1995, but given the context, I doubt anyone could have done better, as by then it was nearly too late, given the rejection of Meech and the slap that was Charlottetown.  The election of the Liberal party was just the last straw.  Also, under him, at least once, he managed to defeat the Bloc in Quebec by having more Liberal MPs than Bloc.  If any Liberal leader, no matter how corrupt or incompetent as PM he was, managed to elect more Liberal MPs than Cons in Alberta, he would be considered a great leader in Canada.  Despite the internal conflicts in his party, he always maintained unity, and he knew when to quit and play the stepmother.

Mediocre PM, effective ruler of the Canadian Liberal Party, I think that's what Grey Fox and Jacob hinted at.  Ignatieff would have been a good PM but he was mediocre ruler of the Libs.