[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Neil]

And centre-right types could have supported ADQ, but the overriding issue for anglos is sovereignty.  Even if the guy says 'Oh, we're not going to have a referendum anytime soon, but we'd like to see a separate Quebec one day', that's a non-starter.

Given that there's no risk for at least one mandate, the one during wich you vote for this party to promote/declare a referendum because they also have a lot of federalists who don't want to hear about it, I'd say it's a riskless proposal.

That's putting an awful lot of faith in a politician not to just call a referendum as soon as possible.  Any kind of separatist, no matter how mild and how far down the road, can't be supported.  No matter how small the risk, the danger is too great to toy with.

[Josephus]

Sad to hear about Flaherty. 

[viper37]

That's putting an awful lot of faith in a politician not to just call a referendum as soon as possible.

Yet, they put an awful lot of faith in politicians under investigation for illegal financing and corruption.

Any kind of separatist, no matter how mild and how far down the road, can't be supported.  No matter how small the risk, the danger is too great to toy with.

See BB, this is what I was telling you about
[/quote]

[viper37]

Not at all.  You asked the question as to why Anglos vote the way they do. Malthus gave you the answer that seems to be the most accurate.  I am not so sure what is so contraversial about Anglos voting for the party they know wont be hostile to them rather than the party that might be hostile.

So you understand francos not voting massively for the Reform, Canadian Alliance and Conservative Party?

Certainly.  You and Oex, amongst others, have explained the reasons very well over the years.

than what we need is some anglo-quebecois, the permanent kind (Malthus doesn't count, sorry ) to explain to us why 92% of them think it's a good idea to vote Liberal

[Neil]

That's putting an awful lot of faith in a politician not to just call a referendum as soon as possible.

Yet, they put an awful lot of faith in politicians under investigation for illegal financing and corruption.

Corruption isn't as bad as separatism.

[Grallon]

The take home message for the other political parties is if they want to attract the Anglo vote they are going to have to remove the potential hostility.  I use Grallon as an example of the kind of hostility Anglos face in Quebec.  I wouldn't want to live with that.

I take offense at this mischaracterization.  I am not hostile to anglophones - after all I work in an environment where I'm surrounded with anglophones, and I do so in English.  It appears you are genuinely unable to see the distinction between anglo hatred and a nationalist stance where the will of the majority is firmly established.  I assure you there is one.  And yes it is grating, like Viper said, to know the Liberals could put a poodle dog or a potted plant as candidate and it would most likely be elected.

But perhaps its the very concept of a nationalism that isn't Canadian that you reject?  Which once again demonstrate that most Canadians deny/reject our very existence as a different/distinct people.  Not that any of this is a surprise for me of course.  This recurring discussion makes it clear every time the subject is brought up.  The difference between Viper and me is he keeps hoping you'll finally get it - whereas I *know* you won't.




G.

[crazy canuck]

I take offense at this mischaracterization.  I am not hostile to anglophones - after all I work in an environment where I'm surrounded with anglophones, and I do so in English.

I can only judge you by the manner in which you post here.  I have no idea how you carry on in other places.

[HVC]

It's admirable that you don't want to put your colleagues in a gulag ( ), but if a voter in quebec, Anglo or Francophone, doesn't want to separate  their only option is liberal. The alternative are seperate now, or seperate later, but those are what the other parties provide.

If one party was a separatist party, and all your other options were parties who would sign a charter that ensures Quebec would never seperate would you ever vote for the non-separatist party, Grallon? That's the scenario the liberal voters live with.

[garbon]

It's admirable that you don't want to put your colleagues in a gulag ( )

I'm not sure I can make the same claim.

[HVC]

It's admirable that you don't want to put your colleagues in a gulag ( )

I'm not sure I can make the same claim.

some of mine would be spared , but not many

[viper37]

It's admirable that you don't want to put your colleagues in a gulag ( ), but if a voter in quebec, Anglo or Francophone, doesn't want to separate  their only option is liberal. The alternative are seperate now, or seperate later, but those are what the other parties provide.

If one party was a separatist party, and all your other options were parties who would sign a charter that ensures Quebec would never seperate would you ever vote for the non-separatist party, Grallon? That's the scenario the liberal voters live with.

Ok, let's say I buy it (I don't, but let's say I do).

How does that explain a constant Liberal vote at the federal level?  That anglos do not vote for the Bloc Québécois, I kinda get it, I assure you.  But there have been alternatives in the past, from the old Progressive Conservative Party to the New Democrats.  Zero chance of seperation from a federal party.  Even if they had voted Bloc, there's nothing they could have done about it.  But until the last election, they never voted for anything else than the Liberal Party of Canada.

Municipal level then.  Newcommer.  Former seperatist.  Old timer, corruption to his left, corruption to his right, gross negligeance (blindness and deafness) from the candidate himself.  He's a former Liberal.
What's the anglo vote? close to 0% for the former seperatist, overwhelming stalinian majority for the ex Liberal.

Not that I would have trusted Harel at the time, but it's like saying you're in Toronto, you have the choice between today's Rob Ford and a newcommer, formely a Liberal Party supporter, who doesn't have a shady past or brutish behavior, and you notive that in select ridings, wich happens to be overwhelmingly French, these people vote in excess of 90% for Rob Ford while everyone else electes different candidates.

People would ask themselves some questions.

[Grey Fox]

Viper, you are giving too much credit to the influence of DC in the Liberal party.

[Neil]

You do realize that the Progressive Conservatives had a rather large caucus from Quebec during the Mulroney years, right?  I bet you some anglos voted for those guys.

At any rate, the Liberal brand is an enduringly popular one amongst anglos in Quebec.  It's like Coca-cola.  What I don't get is why you think that the anglos should be turning out in droves to vote for separatists, no matter how soft.  One of the basic tenets of separatism is a hostility to anglophones, and nobody knows that better than the anglos in Quebec.

[Barrister]

You do realize that the Progressive Conservatives had a rather large caucus from Quebec during the Mulroney years, right?  I bet you some anglos voted for those guys.

Nope.  Or at least, not in great numbers.

The 80s PC wave in Quebec was not the result of a strong PC party.  Rather, informally the PC Party agreed to work with the PQ, and the PQ machinery went to support the PCs.  So the PC Quebec MPs were all in francophone areas, and the regions that voted Liberal were the same old Montreal anglophone regions.

If that seems bizarre, remember what was going on back then.  The first referendum had been savagely defeated, so the PQ had almost forgotten about sovereignty.  Instead they were involved in negotiating to repatriate the constitution with Trudeau.  Not going to go into details, but Levesque felt betrayed by Trudeau, so was open to co-operating with Mulroney.

In exchange of course Mulroney tried his hardest to get Quebec's signature on the constitution by amending it so that Quebec was satisfied, which in turns sowed the seeds for his own eventual downfall...

[Grey Fox]

My grand father was a PC MP with Mulroney.