[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

If the Tories stick to current policy Trudeau could win in a landslide.

To me, in the grand scheme of things (economy, taxes, defecit, spending, health care,) coming out in favour of legalizing  pot is not going to win or lose an election.

That is exactly why I think this is going to be a big issue.  A group did an economic analysis of the budgetary impact of decriminalization and before accounting for the savings related to the justice system it was in the Billions in tax revenue in BC alone.  They took their data from a health Canada survey regarding pot use.

But decriminalizing marijuana doesn't change any of that.  It's still illegal.  You can't tax an illegal substance.  The savings to the justice system would be incredibly modest (trials for simple possession would be more akin to trials for traffic tickets, not full blown criminal trials).

If you're talking about billions in tax revenue you're talking about legalization - which is a whole other issue.

[viper37]

You can't tax an illegal substance. 

Of course you can

Every income is taxable, except when specified it is not.  Every goods & services are taxable by the GST unless exempt.

There is a case involving Revenu Quebec and a member of the Hell's Angels over unpaid GST&PST on drug sales.

[Barrister]

You can't tax an illegal substance. 

Of course you can

Every income is taxable, except when specified it is not.  Every goods & services are taxable by the GST unless exempt.

There is a case involving Revenu Quebec and a member of the Hell's Angels over unpaid GST&PST on drug sales.

Yes I'm aware of that.  Al Capone was brought down for tax evasion and all that.

My point is you can't realistically expect to receive any taxes based on the sale of an illegal product.

[viper37]

My point is you can't realistically expect to receive any taxes based on the sale of an illegal product.

you should have said so!

Yes, what these people want is legalization of the product.  Different issue.  What Trudeau proposes is essentially the Quebec's model.  While theoritically you could go to jail, I'm not aware of cops arresting people for having a joint on them. Heck, some people smoke on the street without problem.

[crazy canuck]

If the Tories stick to current policy Trudeau could win in a landslide.

To me, in the grand scheme of things (economy, taxes, defecit, spending, health care,) coming out in favour of legalizing  pot is not going to win or lose an election.

That is exactly why I think this is going to be a big issue.  A group did an economic analysis of the budgetary impact of decriminalization and before accounting for the savings related to the justice system it was in the Billions in tax revenue in BC alone.  They took their data from a health Canada survey regarding pot use.

But decriminalizing marijuana doesn't change any of that.  It's still illegal.  You can't tax an illegal substance. 

Some wilful blindness on your part I think.  we are talking about decriminalizing and regulating - Not just turning a blind eye.

[Barrister]

If the Tories stick to current policy Trudeau could win in a landslide.

To me, in the grand scheme of things (economy, taxes, defecit, spending, health care,) coming out in favour of legalizing  pot is not going to win or lose an election.

That is exactly why I think this is going to be a big issue.  A group did an economic analysis of the budgetary impact of decriminalization and before accounting for the savings related to the justice system it was in the Billions in tax revenue in BC alone.  They took their data from a health Canada survey regarding pot use.

But decriminalizing marijuana doesn't change any of that.  It's still illegal.  You can't tax an illegal substance. 

Some wilful blindness on your part I think.  we are talking about decriminalizing and regulating - Not just turning a blind eye.

No, some poor terminology on your part.

In the marijuana debate "decriminalizing" means to make possessing marijuana a regulatory, not criminal, offence.  If cops find you with a joint they issue you a ticket, much like a speeding ticket.  Thus you don't get a criminal record.  But possessing marijuana is still against the law.

What you're apparently talking about is "legalizing".  Remove most/all restrictions on possessing or consuming marijuana.  Treat it similar to alcohol as a legal, regulated product.

BY the way when I look at news articles Justin Trudeau came out in favour of decriminalizing, and NOT legalizing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/11/14/justin-trudeau-marijuana-decriminalization_n_2129476.html

[crazy canuck]

No, some poor terminology on your part.

In the marijuana debate "decriminalizing" means to make possessing marijuana a regulatory, not criminal, offence. 

No, some hopeful thinking on your part.  That might be what it means to some people but that is not what it means in Colorado, Washington State or the discussion currently going on in BC or for that matter the position advocated with Trudeau which is, decriminalize, regulate and tax.  Here regulated does not simply make it an offence by another name which is what your version would do but allow adults to use under sales which are regulated.

[Barrister]

No, some poor terminology on your part.

In the marijuana debate "decriminalizing" means to make possessing marijuana a regulatory, not criminal, offence. 

No, some hopeful thinking on your part.  That might be what it means to some people but that is not what it means in Colorado, Washington State or the discussion currently going on in BC or for that matter the position advocated with Trudeau which is, decriminalize, regulate and tax.  Here regulated does not simply make it an offence by another name which is what your version would do but allow adults to use under sales which are regulated.

Why don't you read the article I linked to?

Here's the pertinent part:

"There's a lot of good arguments that say that pot is not as dangerous as tobacco or alcohol, and those are legalized. However, if you look at the big narrative of things, we're trying to get away and reduce the consumption of alcohol and reduce the consumption of tobacco and we're trying to encourage people to be healthier and to be more engaged with the world and one of the things that pot does is disconnects you a little bit from the world. It's not great for your health," Trudeau said in an interview with ProjectRedDot from the convention floor.

"So I don't know that legalizing it — although I totally understand the arguments around removing the criminal elements — I don't know that it's entirely consistent with the kind of society we're trying to build."

The definitions I gave for decriminalizing vs legalizing are the standard ones in this debate.

[crazy canuck]

Meh, everyone here is talking about decriminalization in the terms I said.  If we are all wrong and dont conform to the article you posted so be it.

[Barrister]

Meh, everyone here is talking about decriminalization in the terms I said.  If we are all wrong and dont conform to the article you posted so be it.

Well we are discussing the position of the candidate you were just raving about.

And I think I said - I'm cautiously in favour of decriminalizing - if it is carefully explained to Canadians that does not mean it is being legalized.

[crazy canuck]

Meh, everyone here is talking about decriminalization in the terms I said.  If we are all wrong and dont conform to the article you posted so be it.

Well we are discussing the position of the candidate you were just raving about.

I can understand why you might want to deflect this into a rather obtuse Grumblersque semantic fight so let me just cut you off form going down that dark path.

What Trudeau is proposing expressly is:

Changing the law so that it is no longer illegal to buy pot.  Regulating the sale of Pot.  Taxing the sale of Pot.

I really dont care what you want to call it.  My view is that will be a politically difficult challange for the Conservatives. 

[Barrister]

Meh, everyone here is talking about decriminalization in the terms I said.  If we are all wrong and dont conform to the article you posted so be it.

Well we are discussing the position of the candidate you were just raving about.

I can understand why you might want to deflect this into a rather obtuse Grumblersque semantic fight so let me just cut you off form going down that dark path.

What Trudeau is proposing expressly is:

Changing the law so that it is no longer illegal to buy pot.  Regulating the sale of Pot.  Taxing the sale of Pot.

I really dont care what you want to call it.  My view is that will be a politically difficult challange for the Conservatives.

But that's NOT what he's saying.  He says it should be decriminalized, but isn't too sure about legalizing it.  He also says a number of negative things about it as a substance.

Here's an article that gives more complete quotes:

Trudeau supports decriminalization of marijuana
Guardian photo by Brian McInnis

Published on November 13, 2012
Mitch MacDonald 
 

Federal Liberal leadership candidate speaks about drugs with Colonel Gray High School students

The student didn't even have to finish his question for Justin Trudeau to know he was about to be asked about decriminalization of marijuana.
During a session Tuesday morning with Colonel Gray High School students in Charlottetown, the candidate for the federal Liberal Party leadership came out in support of decriminalizing marijuana and even discussed the possibility of legalization.
Trudeau's opinion on the touchy subject was the first thing the Papineau MP was asked during a question-and-answer session with English-speaking students at the school.
"What's your thoughts on de-," said the student, who paused when he appeared to forget the word.
"Decriminalization," said Trudeau, finishing the student's question for him.
"Of marijuana," added the student.
The question sent a wave of laughter through the students.
However, from the look on many of their faces, few expected to receive the answer Trudeau was about to give.
"I think we have to recognize first and foremost that the war on drugs, as it exists right now, doesn't work," said Trudeau, adding that the current system puts criminal records on Canadians who consume the drug, while also allowing criminal organizations to profit from the prohibition.
"So I am a huge supporter of decriminalization."
However, Trudeau added that the next step to look at would be legalization. This would take marijuana profits away from criminal organizations and allow the government to tax and regulate the drug.
Trudeau added that regulating the drug would mean keeping it away from children, since individuals would have to demonstrate ID before purchasing marijuana.
"(Because) you guys aren't allowed to buy cigarettes or booze either. Because it's not good for you," he added.
By this point in the response, the student who originally asked Trudeau the question had stopped paying attention to the MP's answer and began talking to his friends.
Trudeau noticed, and didn't waste the opportunity to point out that while a number of studies have shown marijuana is less hazardous to health than alcohol and tobacco, the drug can also affect brain development if used heavily during teenage years.
"And the effect of marijuana on the growing brain is being demonstrated by the muttering in the corner right now," said Trudeau of the unaware students.
His comment drew gasps, then laughter and finally thunderous applause from other students and staff.
While there are many arguments for decriminalization, Trudeau added that there are also many unanswered questions. One is the possibility of border control being thickened with the U.S. because of decriminalization.
Another is that while the drug isn't as harmful as tobacco or alcohol, "it's not exactly a health group supplement" either.
"Therefore we have to be mindful of the message that we're sending, about what's OK and what's not OK, because we're trying to get people to live healthier lives," added Trudeau.
"But like I said, I'm a big fan of decriminalization because it (prosecuting drug crimes) is using up resources and feeding into a system that right now isn't working."

http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/News/Local/2012-11-13/article-3119682/Trudeau-supports-decriminalization-of-marijuana/1

He very clearly says we're using too many resources prosecuting drug crimes, but doesn't want to legalize it because that would send the wrong message for something that's "not exactly a health group supplement".

This isn't semantics.  Your characterization about Trudeau's policy is mistaken.

[Neil]

CC just won't let it go.  He really twists himself up to try and prevent being shown to be wrong.

CC:  Man, I really like that Justin Trudeau is for decriminalization of pot.  That means it'll be all legal and we can get tax money!

Languish stoners:  Decriminalization!  Yay!

BB:  Actually, here's an article where Trudeau explicitly states that he's for decriminalization, but not legalization.  It would still be a ticket.

CC:  You're not using the 'decriminalized' properly.

Neil:  Sometimes I think that grumbler wasn't crazy.

[crazy canuck]

Meh, everyone here is talking about decriminalization in the terms I said.  If we are all wrong and dont conform to the article you posted so be it.

Well we are discussing the position of the candidate you were just raving about.

I can understand why you might want to deflect this into a rather obtuse Grumblersque semantic fight so let me just cut you off form going down that dark path.

What Trudeau is proposing expressly is:

Changing the law so that it is no longer illegal to buy pot.  Regulating the sale of Pot.  Taxing the sale of Pot.

I really dont care what you want to call it.  My view is that will be a politically difficult challange for the Conservatives.

But that's NOT what he's saying. 

Ok, I heard him say exactly that on the radio when he was interviewed here in Vancouver.  If you want to tell me I didnt hear what I heard fine.

And by the way the article you posted says exactly that.

However, Trudeau added that the next step to look at would be legalization. This would take marijuana profits away from criminal organizations and allow the government to tax and regulate the drug. Trudeau added that regulating the drug would mean keeping it away from children, since individuals would have to demonstrate ID before purchasing marijuana.


Semantics is Grumblers game.  You dont play it well

[dps]

CC just won't let it go.  He really twists himself up to try and prevent being shown to be wrong.

CC:  Man, I really like that Justin Trudeau is for decriminalization of pot.  That means it'll be all legal and we can get tax money!

Languish stoners:  Decriminalization!  Yay!

BB:  Actually, here's an article where Trudeau explicitly states that he's for decriminalization, but not legalization.  It would still be a ticket.

CC:  You're not using the 'decriminalized' properly.

Neil:  Sometimes I think that grumbler wasn't crazy.

Grumbler wasn't crazy, in that he was correct in his insistance that words have definitions, and you can't have meaningful communication on many issues if you can't come to an agreement on the definitions of the words being used in the discussion.  Where he went crazy about semantics was in his insistance that he was the one who got to provide the definitions of the words being used in discussions in which he participated, and in his seeming inability to realize that words have connotations in addition to their definitions.