[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

Not that I think 1 is particularly likely but it doesn't have to sound as crazy as you put it. Talk about stacking the deck.

Well, a lot of different pieces have to fall into places for it to be pulled off from one individual. I'm perfectly willing to believe that it wasn't necessarily authorized by senior party figures, but I expect that at the very least a handful of people collaborated on this. The question is, assuming there's real substance to the allegations, how high up the organization did people know (and at least tacitly approve if they didn't stop it)?

[crazy canuck]

From reports today its sounds more likely this was not a young Neil want to be running this.  Apparently it wasnt just robo calls, which I think it likely that a tech savy young Neil could pull off independantly. It looks like actual call centres were also involved.  It seems to me that would take some finincial backing.

Also, Jacob, your options are the most damning possible.  It doesnt have to be someone who cares about candidates across ridings. It can be someone who listens to the news, reads web sites and understands where they might have an impact.  That sort of information is widely reported on line and in the media and is easily accessable.  Also, it is a simple matter to obtain voters lists and contact info.

This would not be the first time supporters of parties do things the parties would never authorize.  For example Conservative signs always go missing, get destroyed etc in NDP supporting neighbourhoods.  Its just that technology has made this wrongdoing more visible and effective.

As I said, unlike Oex, I am waiting to see what evidence there is that the Conservative party actually had a hand in this.

[Jacob]

I guess I don't understand the mindset of the "young Neil" you're positing.

I can easily imagine that a young ideologically driven individual would do something unethical in favour of his beliefs. However, I can't quite comprehend the idea of someone doing something that's so clearly in support of the party political process without seeking some sort of approval - even after the fact, just to get recognition from those he looks up to.

On the other hand, if some guy is picturing himself as a dashing political vanguardist secretly struggling for righteousness and is outside the party structure, then I find it unlikely that he'd pull off a move that's apparently so perfectly in tune with specific party goals.

As you correctly said, however, we don't have much information right now on who did it and who knew about it. I think we need a thorough investigation or inquiry to bring the facts to light.

[Barrister]

From reports today its sounds more likely this was not a young Neil want to be running this.  Apparently it wasnt just robo calls, which I think it likely that a tech savy young Neil could pull off independantly. It looks like actual call centres were also involved.  It seems to me that would take some finincial backing.

Also, Jacob, your options are the most damning possible.  It doesnt have to be someone who cares about candidates across ridings. It can be someone who listens to the news, reads web sites and understands where they might have an impact.  That sort of information is widely reported on line and in the media and is easily accessable.  Also, it is a simple matter to obtain voters lists and contact info.

This would not be the first time supporters of parties do things the parties would never authorize.  For example Conservative signs always go missing, get destroyed etc in NDP supporting neighbourhoods.  Its just that technology has made this wrongdoing more visible and effective.

As I said, unlike Oex, I am waiting to see what evidence there is that the Conservative party actually had a hand in this.

Well there are a bunch of different stories going on out there.

There is an allegation out of Guelph of calls which mis-identified themselves as calling on behalf of Elections Canada.

I also read stories where a call centre staff who identified themselves as calling on behalf of the Conservatives were giving out incorrect information about polling locations.  I have trouble with this one as there's a lot of room for that to simply be a mistake.

[Barrister]

As you correctly said, however, we don't have much information right now on who did it and who knew about it. I think we need a thorough investigation or inquiry to bring the facts to light.

Trouble of course from my Conservative-leaning heart is that an inquiry inevitably becomes a witch-hunt, and also has the effect of taking a couple ofdays of bad headlines and stretching them out over months and years.

I'd be happy with a nice private investigation by RCMP and/or Elections Canada.

[Jacob]

Trouble of course from my Conservative-leaning heart is that an inquiry inevitably becomes a witch-hunt, and also has the effect of taking a couple ofdays of bad headlines and stretching them out over months and years.

I'd be happy with a nice private investigation by RCMP and/or Elections Canada.

Yeah... it's likely best to cover it up since it's probably nothing.

[viper37]

I guess I don't understand the mindset of the "young Neil" you're positing.

I can easily imagine that a young ideologically driven individual would do something unethical in favour of his beliefs. However, I can't quite comprehend the idea of someone doing something that's so clearly in support of the party political process without seeking some sort of approval - even after the fact, just to get recognition from those he looks up to.

On the other hand, if some guy is picturing himself as a dashing political vanguardist secretly struggling for righteousness and is outside the party structure, then I find it unlikely that he'd pull off a move that's apparently so perfectly in tune with specific party goals.

As you correctly said, however, we don't have much information right now on who did it and who knew about it. I think we need a thorough investigation or inquiry to bring the facts to light.

that makes senses.  But the Conservatives were also victims of this stunt.  Larry Smith had already noticed the RCMP and Elections Canada during the campaign.

[Barrister]

Trouble of course from my Conservative-leaning heart is that an inquiry inevitably becomes a witch-hunt, and also has the effect of taking a couple ofdays of bad headlines and stretching them out over months and years.

I'd be happy with a nice private investigation by RCMP and/or Elections Canada.

Yeah... it's likely best to cover it up since it's probably nothing.

Well... no.  That's not what I said.

An investigation should happen.  It just should not happen in public.  Which is what the police actually do every single day.  They don't announce what is happening in an investigation until charges ae laid.

[crazy canuck]

I can easily imagine that a young ideologically driven individual would do something unethical in favour of his beliefs. However, I can't quite comprehend the idea of someone doing something that's so clearly in support of the party political process without seeking some sort of approval - even after the fact, just to get recognition from those he looks up to.

I put that down to you not being involved in many elections.  You should re-read the bit about election signs being torn down.  Happens all the time.  Its illegal and I wouldnt for a moment think the NDP actually supports the vandalism but it happens.

There are numerous other examples of over zealous supporters acting badly from all parties.  You are a bit naive to think that people dont act in support of their parties, or at least in a way they view as being supportive, without any actual approval by the party.

On the other hand, if some guy is picturing himself as a dashing political vanguardist secretly struggling for righteousness and is outside the party structure, then I find it unlikely that he'd pull off a move that's apparently so perfectly in tune with specific party goals.

Just like the people that pull down signs think they are dashing political vanguardists?  No, I think the answer is that people do stupid things.  Particularly in the heat of an election.

As you correctly said, however, we don't have much information right now on who did it and who knew about it. I think we need a thorough investigation or inquiry to bring the facts to light.

This we agree on.  I find this conduct unacceptable on a number of levels.  I want to know what happened.

[garbon]

I can easily imagine that a young ideologically driven individual would do something unethical in favour of his beliefs. However, I can't quite comprehend the idea of someone doing something that's so clearly in support of the party political process without seeking some sort of approval - even after the fact, just to get recognition from those he looks up to.

Because he knows it is highly unethical and the party wouldn't be able to sanction such? Isn't there the maxim that it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission?  After all if he thought it was something that would get approval - he could have just raised it as a tactic.

Again, not that I think it likely but seems plausible enough for me.

[crazy canuck]

Trouble of course from my Conservative-leaning heart is that an inquiry inevitably becomes a witch-hunt, and also has the effect of taking a couple ofdays of bad headlines and stretching them out over months and years.

I'd be happy with a nice private investigation by RCMP and/or Elections Canada.

Yeah... it's likely best to cover it up since it's probably nothing.

Well... no.  That's not what I said.

An investigation should happen.  It just should not happen in public.  Which is what the police actually do every single day.  They don't announce what is happening in an investigation until charges ae laid.

But once the charges are laid the hearing is public.

I hope Elections Canada gets to the bottom of this.

[Barrister]

Trouble of course from my Conservative-leaning heart is that an inquiry inevitably becomes a witch-hunt, and also has the effect of taking a couple ofdays of bad headlines and stretching them out over months and years.

I'd be happy with a nice private investigation by RCMP and/or Elections Canada.

Yeah... it's likely best to cover it up since it's probably nothing.

Well... no.  That's not what I said.

An investigation should happen.  It just should not happen in public.  Which is what the police actually do every single day.  They don't announce what is happening in an investigation until charges ae laid.

But once the charges are laid the hearing is public.

I hope Elections Canada gets to the bottom of this.

Yes.

Though Elections Canada and the Conservatives have butted heads more than a few times now...

[viper37]

Anyway, if they are stupid enough to do something like this and think they won't get caught, they deserve to be booted out of office.
I don't want to think of the alternative though, but they haven't shown they deserve to rule.

This scandal plus new allegations of in&out is way too much.

[Barrister]

Anyway, if they are stupid enough to do something like this and think they won't get caught, they deserve to be booted out of office.
I don't want to think of the alternative though, but they haven't shown they deserve to rule.

This scandal plus new allegations of in&out is way too much.

Far too much has been made of "in and out".

It's a dispute between accountants.

[crazy canuck]

Anyway, if they are stupid enough to do something like this and think they won't get caught, they deserve to be booted out of office.
I don't want to think of the alternative though, but they haven't shown they deserve to rule.

This scandal plus new allegations of in&out is way too much.

Did I miss the part where there was any evidence the Conservatives actually did this?