[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

I absolutely didn't. That was someone else.

Sorry, it was an honest mistake, it was Grey Fox.

It's not like this really matters, I am not offended in the slightest by any characterization of being Monoriu for my generally anti-protest views or being characterized as Robespierre for apparently supporting this protest (I don't know where Sasks gets this though )

You continually ascribe positions to English Canada in general that no one I know is taking.

Newspapers and CBC News panel are a great source of inspiration.  It's been a while since I had a chat with an English Canadian in person, but basically it's always like this:
- Quebec inflicts the same fate on its English minority as Canada does to its French minority
- Quebecers are racist, especially outside of the Greater Montreal Area (there was this Facebook Group - Quebec Unity - or something like that - it had Quebec and Unity for sure; they were famous for this stuff, but to be fair, most Montrealers feel like they're the center of the universe and we're all racist red necks out there)
- Quebec is the spoiled child of the Confederation
- And so on and so on.

As for English Canadians being slow drivers, true, that was, for my part, the experience of one young lady and her apparently terrorized boyfriend.  But it also comes from my Ottawa family...  So maybe it's just an Ottawa thing, or an Ontarian thing
In any case, that wasn't meant to be a serious debate about driving attitudes throughout Canada.  Whenever you pass someone, he's a turtle.  Whenever you get passed by someone, he's a crazy maniac.

You continually ascribe positions to people with political opinions different that they didn't actually take - that maybe someone else took, that maybe someone accused them of taking, or that maybe you're imagining them taking.

You and CC did call me racist during the first Justin Trudeau's campaign, I am 99% sure of this.  I just can't find the posts in the thread anymore.
If it wasn't any of you two, it was someone else in this thread that was around at the time, and the main gripe was that I was voting for the CPC even after they went with their hotline thing.  It's the same shit BB was constantly taking from others, for his party affiliation.  It's ok.  I've been called a racist all of my political life for supporting a nationalist party that seeks to defend the interests of people speaking my mother tongue. To not be a racist, I'd have to agree that assimilation is good.  I know the drill.

You took it personally when I said many media commenters supported the Student's Pring movement while I was no way referring to you or anyone on this board.  Just the same columnists I am reading today who are almost calling in the army but where excessively tolerant of other, left-leaning protests.  I thought that was very clear in that comment.

Tbh, though, all of you people here want action to be taken, the sooner the better, even if it means violence.  Am I really wrong here?
I do not remember neither you or Oex asking for forceful dislodging of other protesters in the past, however.  Can't say about CC or Sask.

CC and Sask voted for the current government.  Oex likely voted NDP, as you did.  The current mess on this government's shoulders/knees whatever.  Good intelligence prior to their arrival + forceful deployment of police forces (Ottawa police and RCMP agents at minimum, ideally, Ontario Provincial Police too) would have prevented them from settling in.  Your recognize good leaders by their actions in time of crisis.  The people who voted for the guy can't really complain he's incompetent when they knew what they voted for: they voted him in because he was incompetent and represented no challenge to Canadian status quo.

As for the NDP, they supported similar protests in the past.  They visited the protesters, giving them legitimacy.  Just like some Conservative MPs did.  It is totally unacceptable for a politician to do such a thing.  It is, in my mind, totally illegitimate for a politician, left or right, to give credence to a protest when the goal of the protest is to intimidate the democratically elected government through occupation, vandalism or violence to change its policies.

For the 100th time, I do not support this protest, nor do I support the goals of the protestors.  Science will determine when the measures must be lifted, certainly not the whim of any moronic politician scared by a mob.  I also generally do not support protests, as they are mainly an act of intimidation by bullies and I hate bullies.

As for the Conservative's attitude in this debacle, it is really shameful.  O'Toole decision to meet with the protesters was regretful, but nowhere near the support some other politicians of the party have given.  He was badly advised, that's a given.  If Poilievre is elected chief of the party, I shall refrain to vote in future general election where he is the leader of the Party. If someone like him, who gave support to this protest, and asks for all sanitary measures to be lifted, as if they were a political tool, shame on them and they don't get my vote either.  I do not know who will be the leader of the party in 9 month.  I do not know which direction the party will take.  You'd need a crystal ball for that, and I don't have one.

What I do know, is that neither you nor CC would contemplate voting the Cons.  Neither will Greyfox.  If that ascribing positions to others, so be it.  It's just the truth. So whatever the criticism here, it's totally baseless.

Neither of this excuse that attitude of our current Prime Minister, the guy I did not vote for because I knew from experience how incompetent he was. Now we all live through it and have to endure the consequences.  He politicized the sanitary measures, and some here where happy to tag along. That's the truth, again.  Deal with it however you want.

It makes it really challenging to have a conversation with you, or to take the things you say seriously except as an indication of general animus.

True.  I am opiniated, I react badly to people who call me racist, to bullies and to those who support them.  Since that includes most unions, and their thugs who encircled and threatened me, 11 to 1, well, I have a lot of animosity to give to them.  And before you resort to the Oex line "I am sorry for this, but you should refer to the police"; well let's just say, I know from experience Quebec police does not intervene against unions.  Doesn't matter anyway, I know longer have to deal with these scumbags.

You can't make a left winger, no matter what you say.  You can't convince me English Canada is all loving toward Quebec, I know from experience it's patently false.  So do a number of my acquaintances who've traveled the country more than I did.

You can't make me an imperialist either, or more specifically a British-empire glory dweller.  I'll never look back to the fond days or glory the Empire brought to Canadians of all races and origin, no, sorry.

If that rubs you off, sorry, that's who I am.

[viper37]

I called you Mono, Viper.

La prochaine fois je vais le faire en français.

ça serait mieux pour ne pas que je mêle

(let's see if Jacob got this one ).

[crazy canuck]

I absolutely didn't. That was someone else.

Sorry, it was an honest mistake, it was Grey Fox.

It's not like this really matters, I am not offended in the slightest by any characterization of being Monoriu for my generally anti-protest views or being characterized as Robespierre for apparently supporting this protest (I don't know where Sasks gets this though )

You continually ascribe positions to English Canada in general that no one I know is taking.

Newspapers and CBC News panel are a great source of inspiration.  It's been a while since I had a chat with an English Canadian in person, but basically it's always like this:
- Quebec inflicts the same fate on its English minority as Canada does to its French minority
- Quebecers are racist, especially outside of the Greater Montreal Area (there was this Facebook Group - Quebec Unity - or something like that - it had Quebec and Unity for sure; they were famous for this stuff, but to be fair, most Montrealers feel like they're the center of the universe and we're all racist red necks out there)
- Quebec is the spoiled child of the Confederation
- And so on and so on.

As for English Canadians being slow drivers, true, that was, for my part, the experience of one young lady and her apparently terrorized boyfriend.  But it also comes from my Ottawa family...  So maybe it's just an Ottawa thing, or an Ontarian thing
In any case, that wasn't meant to be a serious debate about driving attitudes throughout Canada.  Whenever you pass someone, he's a turtle.  Whenever you get passed by someone, he's a crazy maniac.

You continually ascribe positions to people with political opinions different that they didn't actually take - that maybe someone else took, that maybe someone accused them of taking, or that maybe you're imagining them taking.

You and CC did call me racist during the first Justin Trudeau's campaign, I am 99% sure of this.  I just can't find the posts in the thread anymore.
If it wasn't any of you two, it was someone else in this thread that was around at the time, and the main gripe was that I was voting for the CPC even after they went with their hotline thing.  It's the same shit BB was constantly taking from others, for his party affiliation.  It's ok.  I've been called a racist all of my political life for supporting a nationalist party that seeks to defend the interests of people speaking my mother tongue. To not be a racist, I'd have to agree that assimilation is good.  I know the drill.

You took it personally when I said many media commenters supported the Student's Pring movement while I was no way referring to you or anyone on this board.  Just the same columnists I am reading today who are almost calling in the army but where excessively tolerant of other, left-leaning protests.  I thought that was very clear in that comment.

Tbh, though, all of you people here want action to be taken, the sooner the better, even if it means violence.  Am I really wrong here?
I do not remember neither you or Oex asking for forceful dislodging of other protesters in the past, however.  Can't say about CC or Sask.

CC and Sask voted for the current government.  Oex likely voted NDP, as you did.  The current mess on this government's shoulders/knees whatever.  Good intelligence prior to their arrival + forceful deployment of police forces (Ottawa police and RCMP agents at minimum, ideally, Ontario Provincial Police too) would have prevented them from settling in.  Your recognize good leaders by their actions in time of crisis.  The people who voted for the guy can't really complain he's incompetent when they knew what they voted for: they voted him in because he was incompetent and represented no challenge to Canadian status quo.

As for the NDP, they supported similar protests in the past.  They visited the protesters, giving them legitimacy.  Just like some Conservative MPs did.  It is totally unacceptable for a politician to do such a thing.  It is, in my mind, totally illegitimate for a politician, left or right, to give credence to a protest when the goal of the protest is to intimidate the democratically elected government through occupation, vandalism or violence to change its policies.

For the 100th time, I do not support this protest, nor do I support the goals of the protestors.  Science will determine when the measures must be lifted, certainly not the whim of any moronic politician scared by a mob.  I also generally do not support protests, as they are mainly an act of intimidation by bullies and I hate bullies.

As for the Conservative's attitude in this debacle, it is really shameful.  O'Toole decision to meet with the protesters was regretful, but nowhere near the support some other politicians of the party have given.  He was badly advised, that's a given.  If Poilievre is elected chief of the party, I shall refrain to vote in future general election where he is the leader of the Party. If someone like him, who gave support to this protest, and asks for all sanitary measures to be lifted, as if they were a political tool, shame on them and they don't get my vote either.  I do not know who will be the leader of the party in 9 month.  I do not know which direction the party will take.  You'd need a crystal ball for that, and I don't have one.

What I do know, is that neither you nor CC would contemplate voting the Cons.  Neither will Greyfox.  If that ascribing positions to others, so be it.  It's just the truth. So whatever the criticism here, it's totally baseless.

Neither of this excuse that attitude of our current Prime Minister, the guy I did not vote for because I knew from experience how incompetent he was. Now we all live through it and have to endure the consequences.  He politicized the sanitary measures, and some here where happy to tag along. That's the truth, again.  Deal with it however you want.

It makes it really challenging to have a conversation with you, or to take the things you say seriously except as an indication of general animus.

True.  I am opiniated, I react badly to people who call me racist, to bullies and to those who support them.  Since that includes most unions, and their thugs who encircled and threatened me, 11 to 1, well, I have a lot of animosity to give to them.  And before you resort to the Oex line "I am sorry for this, but you should refer to the police"; well let's just say, I know from experience Quebec police does not intervene against unions.  Doesn't matter anyway, I know longer have to deal with these scumbags.

You can't make a left winger, no matter what you say.  You can't convince me English Canada is all loving toward Quebec, I know from experience it's patently false.  So do a number of my acquaintances who've traveled the country more than I did.

You can't make me an imperialist either, or more specifically a British-empire glory dweller.  I'll never look back to the fond days or glory the Empire brought to Canadians of all races and origin, no, sorry.

If that rubs you off, sorry, that's who I am.

Viper, you are just making stuff up now.

[saskganesh]

Vipers like a lot of Conservatives. They hate liberals more than they hate fascists.

It must be nice, owning a hot tub.

[saskganesh]

(I don't know where Sasks gets this though )

Because all you offer is an epistemological Reign of Terror.

[saskganesh]

CC and Sask voted for the current government. 

Again, bad research.

For the very first time in my life, I did not vote.

[crazy canuck]

And I voted NDP for the first time federally.  I voted Green in the election before that.

But it suits Viper to view me as a life long Liberal supporter, when that is the furthest thing from the truth.  Much of Viper's political views are built on half truths and outright falsehoods.

[Jacob]

Sorry, it was an honest mistake, it was Grey Fox.

You make that honest mistake over a period of what... a couple of hours? You can't be bothered to scroll up a few posts to make sure you're talking about the right person before you go on a rant, but you're nonetheless 99% sure I called you a racist what... 5 years ago? I'm pretty sure I didn't - I don't think you're a racist - but you bring it up over and over again including in conversations I'm not even part of.

The thing is - yeah it's an honest mistake and not a big deal... if it's something that happens once in a while. But the thing is, you continually conflate people, you repeatedly make assumptions about what people believe - even in the face of them telling you that that is not the case - and you repeatedly put words in people's mouths.

That's not being "opinionated".

I don't care about trying to convince you to be a leftist. I'm genuinely interested in learning your perspective - from Quebec, from where you sit politically - but when everything you say about things I know about (like what I personally think, how CC votes etc) is disconnected from reality, it makes me doubt the substance of everything you say on other topics too.

I'd like to have mutually interesting conversations with you. If that's not possible, I'd like you to stop going on about things "you're sure" I've said or that "you're sure" I believe, ESPECIALLY when I tell you it's not the case.

[Jacob]

So things are happening.

Trudeau authorized the Emergency Act and - I believe - they've frozen all the money coming to the convoy. Additionally, the companies - like GoFundMe and the Christian equivalent whatever it's called (GoSend?) - will have to turn over all the transaction details to Canadian authorities if they wish to operate in Canada.

Additionally it looks like the trucks used in protests are not going to be able to be reinsured, which is going to potentially deleterious for people involved. Apparently the Emergency Act may also give the government some scope to compel tow truck companies (for compensation) to

At the same time, a number of Provincial Governments have said "we don't need the Emergency Act applied here", which - at this point - seems perfectly fine. It seems the act can be applied fairly finely where circumstances warrant, rather than broadly.

That Ambassador bridge has been cleared again. At the Coutts border crossing in Alberta, they arrested 11 people and seized a number of people with guns (long guns and hand guns) and sizeable amounts of ammunition.

Maybe we're getting closer to the end game here.

[viper37]

You make that honest mistake over a period of what... a couple of hours? You can't be bothered to scroll up a few posts to make sure you're talking about the right person before you go on a rant,

It wasn't a rant.  I did not exactly take Sask's comment as being absolutely serious, I thought that was clear.  I did not bother to look upward a few pages because it wasn't really important.  It amuses me that two people read my posts and arrive at two different conclusion about my position on the protest, that is all. 

As for the racism thing, well, let's proceed by elimination:
- It wasn't BB
- It wasn't Grey Fox.
- It wasn't Maximus.
- It wasn't Sask.
- It wasn't Malthus.
- It was in this thread, during Stephen Harper's last election.

And if we're talking about judging people or giving them intentions they don't really hold, well, isn't that what you lot are doing since the beginning of this Ottawa protest/occupation by calling them nazis/fascists?  Comparing them to the KKK?  I've seen a lot more Canadian flags than Confederate flags.

This protest, as silly as it is, has nothing to do with fascism or racism. Conspiracy theorists aren't all fascists.  Opposition to sanitary measures comes from the left as well as the right.

It's not like you lot would bother with that, though.  They're not on your side, so they're nazis.

I just can't remember anyone here, or in the media, having such a strong opposition to protests when it was some anti-democracy militant of some First Nations occupying bridges and railroads or other vital links a few years ago.  that was costly and disruptive for businesses accross the country, just as much as blocking Ambassador's bridge.  Just because it doesn't happen in the middle of a large city does not mean it's insignificant.  Just because it's not a bunch of Braveheart on wheels does not mean it's the good guys protesting.  Just because some people launch their occupy movement with the hope of replacing the democratically elected government of a territory with their own communist version, it does not mean they are right about it. It's just as equally wrong as what the "Freedom" convoy is doing right now.

What I've seen so far is far less violent than the usual G7/G20/FTAA protests.

Somehow, this is totally fine and justified:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sI8p0gH9QQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_IIyIp36A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COTA2_NTTJI

And here's the typical leftist view about arresting protesters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-Ld30SsPU
"It was ultra violent".

Yet, these same people now want the police to violently arrest the truckers because most of them of right wingers.

That's just pure bullshit.

Either you support all protests like this or you don't.  You just can't pick or choose based on your political inclination.  I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I did like that.

[viper37]

So things are happening.

Trudeau authorized the Emergency Act and

Excellent editorial:
Translation by Google

CHRONICLE / There are those ironies of which only History has the secret. Like ensuring that it is the Trudeau father and son who will both have faced a social crisis with the blow of a truncheon. Although it would be dishonest to equate today's Emergencies Act with the late, infinitely more liberticidal War Measures Act, it must be admitted that the political posture that led to their use is , very similar. The dynasty suffers from a kind of congenital political deafness.

[...]

[Jacob]

As for the racism thing, well, let's proceed by elimination:

- It wasn't BB
- It wasn't Grey Fox.
- It wasn't Maximus.
- It wasn't Sask.
- It wasn't Malthus.
- It was in this thread, during Stephen Harper's last election.

Okay, so I assume you mean the election of October 15, 2015? That's 2,314 days ago.

Languish's search tools are not very good, unfortunately. Still, I did a search on all boards for my username and the word "racist" for the period between 2,000 to 2,400 days ago (so about 10 months before the election, to about 3 months after). There are 7 hits, and none of them involve me calling you a racist in any shape or form.

I also did a search for your username and the word "racist", just in case I said something and you replied by saying "you're calling me a racist." Again, nothing.

Just for good measure, I searched the same period for crazy canuck, just in case. Again, he doesn't call you a racist.

For good measure, I went back and read the posts from October 9, 2015 until the election (it appears I'd been absent for a bit prior, so I didn't think there was a point in going back before that time. There's a fair bit of discussion about the "barbaric cultural practices" line that Harper came out with, but I didn't call you a racist either.

So it appears that your memory is faulty on this point. Not to mention the fact that you're still going on about it more than six years later which is a bit weird.

[Jacob]

The guns seized from arrested protestors at the Coutts border crossing in Alberta:



Relatedly:

[Supt. Roberta McKale of the RCMP]... also added that the different charges and different acts have created a situation where the Mounties are investigating conspiracy to attempt to commit murder.

Separately:

The Canadian Armed Forces have acknowledged that at least six active soldiers are under investigation after they showed support for the protest against vaccine mandates and other COVID-19 measures. It's unclear how many of them have participated in the protests on Parliament Hill.

CBC News has confirmed a report in the Ottawa Citizen that two members under investigation are part of the JTF2 assault team, the elite counterterrorism unit of the Canadian Forces.

Also, some hackers got some data from the GiveSendGo donation site funding the convoy:

The data, which includes the home countries of donors, reveals that 55.7 per cent of the 92,844 donations made public came from donors in the United States, while just 39 per cent came from donors located in Canada.

But while the U.S. donations included a number of large contributions — in some cases from names matching the names of donors to former U.S. president Donald Trump's campaigns — Canadians actually gave more money in total to the convoy protest.

A screenshot taken Sunday night of a page that visitors to the GiveSendGo crowdfunding site were routed to. A link on the page appeared to lead to data identifying people who donated money to the organizers of the convoy protests against vaccine mandates in Canada

Of the $8.4 million US in donations detailed in the data, $4.3 million US — or 52.5 per cent of the total — came from Canada, while $3.6 million US (44.2 per cent) came from the U.S.

[HVC]

As for the racism thing, well, let's proceed by elimination:

- It wasn't BB
- It wasn't Grey Fox.
- It wasn't Maximus.
- It wasn't Sask.
- It wasn't Malthus.
- It was in this thread, during Stephen Harper's last election.

Hey, what about me! 

[Josephus]

As for the racism thing, well, let's proceed by elimination:

- It wasn't BB
- It wasn't Grey Fox.
- It wasn't Maximus.
- It wasn't Sask.
- It wasn't Malthus.
- It was in this thread, during Stephen Harper's last election.

Hey, what about me! 

We don't count.