[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

Funny you would think yeast. First thing that would come to mind for most people is, oh, oilet paper.

I think neither yeast nor toilet paper are particularly good examples of supply constraints as their supply chains are relatively simple and they have fairly simple inputs.

Automotive is a better example, where the disruption of long just-in-time supply chains have resulted in lower outputs, driving up prices of both new and used cars. Those car manufacturing supply chains (and similarly complex ones) have not settled down yet, notwithstanding the availability of yeast and toilet paper in the stores.

[Zoupa]

To Jacob: taken in a vacuum, I also don't care about an airline CEO speaking French.

I do care about a national carrier being able to serve its citizens in their national language.

As for the insult part, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Honestly, I think Quebecers are so jaded to the federal gvt's lack of respect for French that nobody is surprised or insulted, even moreso in Air Canada's case with its decades long disregard.
As noted in the article, this stuff goes back 50 years, and the amount of complaints are only increasing.

Canada is really good at this kind of PR, feeling good about themselves and telling the world they're a bilingual country, or they care about the environment, or Indigenous rights are sacrosanct. The reality is quite different.

[viper37]

I remember in, like April 2020 or so, at the height of the start of this pandemic. I walked into my local grocery store, after waiting in line outside for 30 minutes, and walking around and seeing so many bare shelves. It ranks as one of the most surreal moments of my life.

tp aside, I don't remember seeing generally empty shelves in my grocery store.

[viper37]

The CEO of Air Denmark lives in Copenhagen for 15 years. His mother is Danish. His wife is Danish. He does not speak Danish. He speaks German, including when addressing Copenhagen's chamber of commerce. His company has a shitty record of offering services in Danish to his Danish customers.

A-OK?

The Danish airline hypothetical is reasonably apt because insofar as Denmark has a national carrier it's SAS, which is pan-Scandinavian airline and thus also involves more than one language. The current CEO is Dutch and - as far as I know speaks neither Danish, Norwegian, nor Swedish. Insofar as being served in Danish/ Swedish/ Norwegian you can expect the gate agents to speak the local language and possible the others (but it's not guaranteed). Similarly, you can expect the air crew to speak one of the official languages, but they're unlikely to speak all of them.

When it comes to individuals living in Denmark speaking Danish, I can say that I personally don't really care. At the same time I know that the Danish state and section of the public really does and there are significant resources available to help people learn the language. I don't believe I've heard of a controversy involving a leader speakin

To be clear, it don't really have an issue with the expectation to learn and speak French (or Danish, in the hypothetical). It's the whole "it's an insult" thing I find unsympathetic.

Language skills: Dutch native, fluent English & Spanish, basic understanding of Italian, French & Swedish.

That's a lot more than Air Canada's CEO.

Well, it's a good thing to know our English Canadian friends never had a problem seeing the Toronto chamber of commerce invite French-only speakers, CEOs of crown corporation, or large corporation.  Oh wait, I forgot: it never happened.    They won't even tolerate a native French-speaking Québécois to become owner of what they see as a "jewel" corporation.




EDIT:  Looking at it, it seems this CEO learnt the language of every placed he worked in.  Worked for Air France, learnt French.  Worked in Columbia, learnt Spanish.

[Barrister]

They won't even tolerate a native French-speaking Québécois to become owner of what they see as a "jewel" corporation.

[viper37]

They won't even tolerate a native French-speaking Québécois to become owner of what they see as a "jewel" corporation.

Check it out.
Everytime a Québécois tried to buy something of a "national" symbol, he was pushed back by some measure or another.  Latest attempt was the group who owned Montreal's stock exchange who tried to buy TSE.  And there was this whole business of Hydro-Québec wanting to buy NB Power that raised alarm throughout all of Canada, pushing the Federal government to guarantee loans that Newfoundland couldn't repay to develop its own failed Hydro power project promising to supply New Brunswick and export to the US.

[Jacob]

To Jacob: taken in a vacuum, I also don't care about an airline CEO speaking French.

Cool. Conversely, I fully accept that the CEO of Air Canada does not exist in a vacuum so therefore it's an issue if he does not speak French.

I do care about a national carrier being able to serve its citizens in their national language.

Absolutely fair.

I honestly don't know how bad it is currently, so I'm curious what a reasonably satisfactory standard is. Is it:

1) Everyone at AC should speak French.

2) Everyone in a customer facing role at AC should speak French.

3) There should be someone to provide service in French at every service location proportional to the level of Francophone clientele, but a minimum of one so a Francophone traveller can complete their journey in French no matter where they go.

4) At is acceptable that points of service that rarely see Francophone travellers do not provide service in French as long as routes that do have such service.

... or something else?

As for the insult part, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Honestly, I think Quebecers are so jaded to the federal gvt's lack of respect for French that nobody is surprised or insulted, even moreso in Air Canada's case with its decades long disregard.
As noted in the article, this stuff goes back 50 years, and the amount of complaints are only increasing.

You're the one who used the term that I was reacting to. In the big scheme of thing it doesn't mean much. I agree with you on the substance of the issue.

Canada is really good at this kind of PR, feeling good about themselves and telling the world they're a bilingual country, or they care about the environment, or Indigenous rights are sacrosanct. The reality is quite different.

A nicer way to put it is that it's somewhat aspirational... but yeah....

[Barrister]

They won't even tolerate a native French-speaking Québécois to become owner of what they see as a "jewel" corporation.

Check it out.
Everytime a Québécois tried to buy something of a "national" symbol, he was pushed back by some measure or another.  Latest attempt was the group who owned Montreal's stock exchange who tried to buy TSE.  And there was this whole business of Hydro-Québec wanting to buy NB Power that raised alarm throughout all of Canada, pushing the Federal government to guarantee loans that Newfoundland couldn't repay to develop its own failed Hydro power project promising to supply New Brunswick and export to the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_sale_of_NB_Power

While it sounds like it would have been a good deal, this summary sounds fairly different than yours.  And for "raising alarm thoughout all of Canada" I"d never heard of this story before today.

As for the Montreal Exchange - googling brings up nothing, except the fact that the TSX bought out the Montreal Exchange in 2008, after previously having bought out the western-based CDNX.

So I repeat:

[Barrister]

As for the CEO of Air Canada, as a hockey fan I'm reminded of the Montreal Canadiens.  They have long had a policy that their GM and coach should both speak French.  Now this kind of makes sense, in particular in a fan-driven business like pro hockey.  But it also has the effect of severely limiting the number of potential candidates the Canadiens can hire from.

[Zoupa]

To Jacob: taken in a vacuum, I also don't care about an airline CEO speaking French.

Cool. Conversely, I fully accept that the CEO of Air Canada does not exist in a vacuum so therefore it's an issue if he does not speak French.

I do care about a national carrier being able to serve its citizens in their national language.

Absolutely fair.

I honestly don't know how bad it is currently, so I'm curious what a reasonably satisfactory standard is. Is it:

1) Everyone at AC should speak French.

2) Everyone in a customer facing role at AC should speak French.

3) There should be someone to provide service in French at every service location proportional to the level of Francophone clientele, but a minimum of one so a Francophone traveller can complete their journey in French no matter where they go.

4) At is acceptable that points of service that rarely see Francophone travellers do not provide service in French as long as routes that do have such service.

... or something else?

As for the insult part, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Honestly, I think Quebecers are so jaded to the federal gvt's lack of respect for French that nobody is surprised or insulted, even moreso in Air Canada's case with its decades long disregard.
As noted in the article, this stuff goes back 50 years, and the amount of complaints are only increasing.

You're the one who used the term that I was reacting to. In the big scheme of thing it doesn't mean much. I agree with you on the substance of the issue.

Canada is really good at this kind of PR, feeling good about themselves and telling the world they're a bilingual country, or they care about the environment, or Indigenous rights are sacrosanct. The reality is quite different.

A nicer way to put it is that it's somewhat aspirational... but yeah....

I'd be ok with 2).

I'd challenge the aspirational term. I don't think it applies when no effort is made.

As for the insult part, this article from an Anglo montrealer sums it better than I can:

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/lise-ravary-language-aside-air-canada-ceo-needs-a-lesson-in-humility

Relevant passages:

At the heart of it: customer service and safety. Language is also a safety issue.

Anglophones and francophones have an equal right to be evacuated in a language they understand.

Remember, many people and politicians are not mad so much because his speech was in English. It was his attitude, summarized as "I don't need French in Quebec" and "I don't have time to learn it," which translates for many into a loud "I don't care about you." François Legault was right: It is insulting. Justin Trudeau chose the word "unacceptable." And avoidable since Rousseau was warned.

[viper37]

They won't even tolerate a native French-speaking Québécois to become owner of what they see as a "jewel" corporation.

Check it out.
Everytime a Québécois tried to buy something of a "national" symbol, he was pushed back by some measure or another.  Latest attempt was the group who owned Montreal's stock exchange who tried to buy TSE.  And there was this whole business of Hydro-Québec wanting to buy NB Power that raised alarm throughout all of Canada, pushing the Federal government to guarantee loans that Newfoundland couldn't repay to develop its own failed Hydro power project promising to supply New Brunswick and export to the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_sale_of_NB_Power

While it sounds like it would have been a good deal, this summary sounds fairly different than yours.  And for "raising alarm thoughout all of Canada" I"d never heard of this story before today.

As for the Montreal Exchange - googling brings up nothing, except the fact that the TSX bought out the Montreal Exchange in 2008, after previously having bought out the western-based CDNX.

So I repeat:

Montreal proposed to buy TSE, they managed to squash it down, and the owners had to sell to TSE.  French can't rise above their station.

As for NB Power:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-power-protest-draws-hundreds-1.897459
https://labour-rights.nupge.ca/content/mass-protest-fredericton-against-nb-power-sale

Positions of other provinces

Newfoundland and Labrador premier Danny Williams.
Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams was among the first to loudly protest the ceding of transmission lines to Quebec's effective jurisdiction, as he was involved in a longstanding dispute over the development of Churchill Falls and reliable access to NERC Open Access Transmission Tariff (OATT) governed transmission lines to sell hydropower to the United States.[18] Despite assurances by the Graham government, Williams took the position that just as Quebec and its regulatory agencies had permitted Hydro-Québec to interpret the OATT rules in such a way as to monopolize and block transmission via Quebec, it would similarly be possible to block his only other land transmission route via New Brunswick.[citation needed]

Nova Scotia objected on grounds that it had always supported a Maritime regional or Atlantic regional power transmission system subject to a single common set of rules, and that conflicts between Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec over New Brunswick or otherwise threatened to subject the entire region to American rules administered via NERC especially with regards to OATT tariffs.

We know the rest.  The Feds guaranteed a loan to NFL so it could compete with Quebec, both NB and NFL received debt relief from the feds.

English Canadians didn't want a Quebec state-owned company to own a part of their assets, so they protested and pushed to Feds for an alternative.

[Josephus]

I remember in, like April 2020 or so, at the height of the start of this pandemic. I walked into my local grocery store, after waiting in line outside for 30 minutes, and walking around and seeing so many bare shelves. It ranks as one of the most surreal moments of my life.

tp aside, I don't remember seeing generally empty shelves in my grocery store.

You must have missed it. There was a good month when people where hoarding. There were empty shelves. Not just tp. As BB mentioned, yeast and all baking products. I remember canned goods were going quickly. Most grocery stores were putting limits on many things. It was like being in the Soviet Union.

[Zoupa]

I remember in, like April 2020 or so, at the height of the start of this pandemic. I walked into my local grocery store, after waiting in line outside for 30 minutes, and walking around and seeing so many bare shelves. It ranks as one of the most surreal moments of my life.

tp aside, I don't remember seeing generally empty shelves in my grocery store.

You must have missed it. There was a good month when people where hoarding. There were empty shelves. Not just tp. As BB mentioned, yeast and all baking products. I remember canned goods were going quickly. Most grocery stores were putting limits on many things. It was like being in the Soviet Union.

I don't remember seeing any of that in Quebec.

[Barrister]

I remember in, like April 2020 or so, at the height of the start of this pandemic. I walked into my local grocery store, after waiting in line outside for 30 minutes, and walking around and seeing so many bare shelves. It ranks as one of the most surreal moments of my life.

tp aside, I don't remember seeing generally empty shelves in my grocery store.

You must have missed it. There was a good month when people where hoarding. There were empty shelves. Not just tp. As BB mentioned, yeast and all baking products. I remember canned goods were going quickly. Most grocery stores were putting limits on many things. It was like being in the Soviet Union.

I don't remember seeing any of that in Quebec.

Yeah I didn't generally see anything like being in the USSR.  The shortages were for specific items like toilet paper, or certain cleaning products.

And then after about a month it was yeast / flour that was on shortage - just because everyone locked at home started to try baking at home out of boredom.  And apparently while yeast itself is ridiculously easy to grow, it was the packaging materials that meant producers couldn't ramp up production.

But there was definitely a time in Edmonton where you could hardly find wheat or yeast.

[viper37]

Canada is really good at this kind of PR, feeling good about themselves and telling the world they're a bilingual country, or they care about the environment, or Indigenous rights are sacrosanct. The reality is quite different.

A nicer way to put it is that it's somewhat aspirational... but yeah....

Not so long ago, people were fired for speaking French amongst themselves.  In the Federal government.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt80cp6