[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Grey Fox]

Interesting to see CC be so positive about DBH. Her response to the 2nd wave and on is closer to what Kenney does than anything sensible. Her stance on mask mandate is inadequate at best.

She luck out in the 1st wave since the greater Vancouver Asian population was protecting themselves without her input or rules.

[Barrister]

Yeah, I know that is exactly my point.  In BC the PHO is an independent office.  So no political fuckery like what is happening in Alberta.  The orders our PHO issues are based on her best judgment as a public health professional.

A good example of the difference is when the NHL wanted to use Vancouver as a hub city.  Our Premier was very much in favour of doing that.  Our PHO said no.

On reflection you're right.  I would much rather live in wonderful BC where the PHO can make decisions that affect all citizens without any impact whatsoever from craven politicians or uninformed public opinion.  Listen to the science!

[Jacob]

Interesting to see CC be so positive about DBH. Her response to the 2nd wave and on is closer to what Kenney does than anything sensible. Her stance on mask mandate is inadequate at best.

She luck out in the 1st wave since the greater Vancouver Asian population was protecting themselves without her input or rules.

As far as I can tell, Dr. Bonnie Henry is pretty well regarded in BC. I mean, there are those who dislike her for the usual reasons - doing too much or too little, too soon or too late - but overall I think her effort is well respected out here.

But yes, the Asian population - specifically the Chinese population - was taking Covid-19 very seriously before it hit the consciousness of the rest of Canada and that likely helped. We had friends who went into voluntary isolation on returning from abroad, before it was mandated, for example.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say the PHO is an apolitical office out here, but I think Horgan and Dix made a deliberate decision to centre Dr. Henry in both the communication and the decision-making

[crazy canuck]

Okay - I'd misunderstood I thought the alternative in Alberta was vaccine or a negative test within the last three days.

It is not merely scientific advice.  The PHO weighs all the factors.

Okay but again that gets you to the question of whether it should be their job to weigh up all factors or provide advice/make decisions within their area of expertise. And as I say that's the same as the Swedish model - so I just don't think remove political interference = BC's policies; tolerate political interference = Alberta's.

Public health experts around the world don't have one view on this especially on the more edge/difficult cases like schools or who gets vaccinated or what combination of measures we have in place once we have a high level of vaccination, esepcially in vulnerable groups. I think the whole "follow the science" approach was true in the first wave, I think there was far more consensus. We're now moving into a more difficult set of decisions around what the world looks like with endemic covid.

Incidentally - I think a lot about Jeremy Farrer's remarks that this may be most difficult for somewhere like China that did very well to stop covid, has less efective vaccines and hasn't experienced many deaths. Because the rest of the world failed to or didn't try to achieve "zero covid" it's going to be very difficult for them because there will be deaths (same goes for Australia and New Zealand - but moreso in China because their vaccines are good and effective, but less effective than the alternatives).

That was the decision of the legislature.  The PHO is a statutory decision maker exercising powers given to her under her statute.  As Jacob mentioned there is a political connection in the sense that the legislature could amend the legislation to take those powers away if the PHO went crazy.  But as Jacob also pointed out, that would be political suicide here since she has managed things very well and is popular as a result.

[crazy canuck]

Interesting to see CC be so positive about DBH. Her response to the 2nd wave and on is closer to what Kenney does than anything sensible. Her stance on mask mandate is inadequate at best.

She luck out in the 1st wave since the greater Vancouver Asian population was protecting themselves without her input or rules.

I don't know what you are talking about.  BC was the first to move on restrictions and the only province that took steps to shame the feds into closing the American border - BC actually sent people to crossings....

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I know that is exactly my point.  In BC the PHO is an independent office.  So no political fuckery like what is happening in Alberta.  The orders our PHO issues are based on her best judgment as a public health professional.

A good example of the difference is when the NHL wanted to use Vancouver as a hub city.  Our Premier was very much in favour of doing that.  Our PHO said no.

On reflection you're right.  I would much rather live in wonderful BC where the PHO can make decisions that affect all citizens without any impact whatsoever from craven politicians or uninformed public opinion.  Listen to the science!

Yeah, I cannot imagine living in a province where public health decisions are made by a politician who does not have the backbone to stand up to anti vaxxers.   The problem for you is that the value of your house will not purchase a house in BC, so you are pretty much stuck in that conservative hell.  but cheer up, there is a good chance the NDP will form the next government in Alberta and if so will fix things.

[Barrister]

Yeah, I know that is exactly my point.  In BC the PHO is an independent office.  So no political fuckery like what is happening in Alberta.  The orders our PHO issues are based on her best judgment as a public health professional.

A good example of the difference is when the NHL wanted to use Vancouver as a hub city.  Our Premier was very much in favour of doing that.  Our PHO said no.

On reflection you're right.  I would much rather live in wonderful BC where the PHO can make decisions that affect all citizens without any impact whatsoever from craven politicians or uninformed public opinion.  Listen to the science!

Yeah, I cannot imagine living in a province where public health decisions are made by a politician who does not have the backbone to stand up to anti vaxxers.   The problem for you is that the value of your house will not purchase a house in BC, so you are pretty much stuck in that conservative hell.  but cheer up, there is a good chance the NDP will form the next government in Alberta and if so will fix things.

One can only hope!  After all the first Notley government was such a tremendous success!

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I know that is exactly my point.  In BC the PHO is an independent office.  So no political fuckery like what is happening in Alberta.  The orders our PHO issues are based on her best judgment as a public health professional.

A good example of the difference is when the NHL wanted to use Vancouver as a hub city.  Our Premier was very much in favour of doing that.  Our PHO said no.

On reflection you're right.  I would much rather live in wonderful BC where the PHO can make decisions that affect all citizens without any impact whatsoever from craven politicians or uninformed public opinion.  Listen to the science!

Yeah, I cannot imagine living in a province where public health decisions are made by a politician who does not have the backbone to stand up to anti vaxxers.   The problem for you is that the value of your house will not purchase a house in BC, so you are pretty much stuck in that conservative hell.  but cheer up, there is a good chance the NDP will form the next government in Alberta and if so will fix things.

One can only hope!  After all the first Notley government was such a tremendous success!

I agree!

[viper37]

but cheer up, there is a good chance the NDP will form the next government in Alberta and if so will fix things.

how did the party fix things the last time?

[Zoupa]

*Zoupa.

Grey Fox thinks every qualified leader can participate in the debates, no matter the language of it.

Example #3689243 of how anglophones think we're all the same!!!!!1111!1

Just kidding Jacob

[Zoupa]

Yeah, I know that is exactly my point.  In BC the PHO is an independent office.  So no political fuckery like what is happening in Alberta.  The orders our PHO issues are based on her best judgment as a public health professional.

A good example of the difference is when the NHL wanted to use Vancouver as a hub city.  Our Premier was very much in favour of doing that.  Our PHO said no.

On reflection you're right.  I would much rather live in wonderful BC where the PHO can make decisions that affect all citizens without any impact whatsoever from craven politicians or uninformed public opinion.  Listen to the science!

I think this pandemic has shown that public health officers are not these saintly balls of pure energy. They can be political or out of touch or fuck up just as much as the average politician.

I think the unsexy response is consultation and getting input from the multitude. Putting a PHO in charge 100% is not the answer and neither is politicians ignoring their input.

[Jacob]

*Zoupa.

Grey Fox thinks every qualified leader can participate in the debates, no matter the language of it.

Example #3689243 of how anglophones think we're all the same!!!!!1111!1

Just kidding Jacob

I have a vague notion that you and Viper are not exactly identical...

[Jacob]

I think this pandemic has shown that public health officers are not these saintly balls of pure energy. They can be political or out of touch or fuck up just as much as the average politician.

I think the unsexy response is consultation and getting input from the multitude. Putting a PHO in charge 100% is not the answer and neither is politicians ignoring their input.

Yeah, I don't think they're saintly balls of light. They are domain expert, semi-autonomous civil servants at arms reach but subject nonetheless to some political influence which is - I think - the way it should be.

I think Dr. Hinshaw and Dr. Henry are subject to about the same level of political pressure, and that that pressure reflected the agendas of the democratically elected governments they were working with.

Dr. Henry, Dix, and Horgan were far from perfect in how they've handled Covid-19, but I do think overall they've handled it better than Dr. Hinshaw, Shandro, and Kenney so far. I don't think that's down to some fundamental difference in how they're organized or their respective remits, but rather it's the accumulation of a number of political, communication, and administrative decisions that have been made along the way.

If I were to speculate on the underlying reasons for the somewhat different situations in Alberta and BC, I think the fundamental factpr is that the Alberta government has a significant constituency that is receptive to anti-vax and anti-government-mandated-anything sentiment whereas the BC government does not. This, I think, has informed the respective government's decision making, including how and when they've exerted influence over their PHOs.

[Zoupa]

It's very difficult to study or compare the data between two places with regards to Covid pre-vaccine and come up with analyses.

Since the vaccine is widely available though, it's much simpler. The main difference between Alberta and BC are its citizens. I think right-leaning folks have, over the last 20 years, gradually drifted towards a more US Republican views. The correlation is right there.

I live near Kelowna, where folks consistently vote Conservative in federal and provincial elections. Kelowna has the worst vaccination rate in BC (as of last month, I haven't checked recently).

[Sheilbh]

It's very difficult to study or compare the data between two places with regards to Covid pre-vaccine and come up with analyses.

Since the vaccine is widely available though, it's much simpler. The main difference between Alberta and BC are its citizens. I think right-leaning folks have, over the last 20 years, gradually drifted towards a more US Republican views. The correlation is right there.

I live near Kelowna, where folks consistently vote Conservative in federal and provincial elections. Kelowna has the worst vaccination rate in BC (as of last month, I haven't checked recently).

I totally agree with both of you.

And I think ultimately big mainly pre-vaccine decisions like lockdowns or closing schools should not be made by public health officials whose job is public health, I think that needs to go to a politician with a democratic mandate and accountability but whose job is also to look at the impact on education and inequality (which is huge - this is why Europe has really emphasised trying to keep schools open), or the economy and making sure there's support measures in place etc. I think there are decisions where public health needs to be just one voice of many, if probably the most important one. But there's no consistency, there's no clearly right answer or system - even countries that did incredibly well in avoiding the first wave have since been walloped by either the Alpha or Delta wave. I think the main lesson I'd take is that I think countries that were nimble and responsive to new data even if it wasn't conclusive or fully reviewed probably did better.

Here it's younger people, poorer people and some minority communities that have lower rates of take-up on the vaccine and I think the focus is trying to meet those people where they are (both in terms of in their community - but also that appointments are difficult if you're in shift/zero hours work, how can we make that easier) and trying to tap into community networks etc to build support. But it's ultimately a combination of people wanting to wait and see, not getting round to it and not feeling that a vaccine is urgent for them.

I don't really know how you address people who are actively hostile to it.