[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Oexmelin]

I am sorry: why is Bill 21 even discussed right now?

because some people seem to believe that Islamophobia magically stops at provincial borders.

Err. No, it clearly doesn't. But at some point, people have to decide whether Bill 21 "reveals" existing islamophobia in Quebec, or "causes" islamophobia in Canada.

I don't think islamophobes in Canada were waiting for Bill 21 in Quebec to suddenly erupt on the scene in Ontario. I don't think Bill 21 is the major inspiration for islamophobes either. I doubt English Canadian islamophobes are subtle readers of Quebec's attempts to deal with laïcité. Weirdly enough, no one is apparently concerned whether these Ontarians suddenly finding inspiration from Quebec's Bill 21 are avid readers of the French press or are consuming hysterical reports about it in the anglophone press.

At this point, I think it mostly reveals a convenient, self-contained explanation that allows people to avoid examining islamophobia in their own communities, and finding explanation for hatred in their own community, in favor of pointing fingers clearly at the place that has served the convenient role of  "the Other" ever since 1760. This sort of cheap sociology is fucking tiresome.

[crazy canuck]

I am sorry: why is Bill 21 even discussed right now?

because some people seem to believe that Islamophobia magically stops at provincial borders.

Err. No, it clearly doesn't. But at some point, people have to decide whether Bill 21 "reveals" existing islamophobia in Quebec, or "causes" islamophobia in Canada.

I don't think islamophobes in Canada were waiting for Bill 21 in Quebec to suddenly erupt on the scene in Ontario. I don't think Bill 21 is the major inspiration for islamophobes either. I doubt English Canadian islamophobes are subtle readers of Quebec's attempts to deal with laïcité. Weirdly enough, no one is apparently concerned whether these Ontarians suddenly finding inspiration from Quebec's Bill 21 are avid readers of the French press or are consuming hysterical reports about it in the anglophone press.

At this point, I think it mostly reveals a convenient, self-contained explanation that allows people to avoid examining islamophobia in their own communities, and finding explanation for hatred in their own community, in favor of pointing fingers clearly at the place that has served the convenient role of  "the Other" ever since 1760. This sort of cheap sociology is fucking tiresome.

I am in the reveals it camp.   Bill 21 clearly is not the cause it but is a symptom of the problem.

I am not sure saying it is present everywhere is a denial that it is everywhere.

[Malthus]

I am sorry: why is Bill 21 even discussed right now?

because some people seem to believe that Islamophobia magically stops at provincial borders.

Err. No, it clearly doesn't. But at some point, people have to decide whether Bill 21 "reveals" existing islamophobia in Quebec, or "causes" islamophobia in Canada.

I don't think islamophobes in Canada were waiting for Bill 21 in Quebec to suddenly erupt on the scene in Ontario. I don't think Bill 21 is the major inspiration for islamophobes either. I doubt English Canadian islamophobes are subtle readers of Quebec's attempts to deal with laïcité. Weirdly enough, no one is apparently concerned whether these Ontarians suddenly finding inspiration from Quebec's Bill 21 are avid readers of the French press or are consuming hysterical reports about it in the anglophone press.

At this point, I think it mostly reveals a convenient, self-contained explanation that allows people to avoid examining islamophobia in their own communities, and finding explanation for hatred in their own community, in favor of pointing fingers clearly at the place that has served the convenient role of  "the Other" ever since 1760. This sort of cheap sociology is fucking tiresome.

I don't think it is at all reasonable to assert that Bill 21 caused Islamophobia in other provinces. Anyone doing so is simply incorrect.

However, while I also think it is not the right tone to discuss Bill 21, it is somewhat understandable that when an Islamophobic attack occurs, the topic is raised about Canadian approaches to Islam generally.

[Zoupa]

From another province, while not discussing the province where the attack took place's approach?

Gimme a break.

[Oexmelin]

I am not sure saying it is present everywhere is a denial that it is everywhere.

But that is not what is being said. What is being done is to establish a direct, causal link between a bill, *in a different province* which the anglo press has already decided is islamophobe, and a hateful crime - prior to examining any local causes.

After the mosque killings in Quebec, no one here rushed to denounce the existing islamophobia of Ontario as the inspiration of the killer. And surprisingly, no one in the anglo press suggested it stemmed from Alberta trash radio, or from Ezra Levant's Rebel media.

Quebec's atavistic racism is such a go-to trope of the English media, it's the default explanation for everything and anything ugly that happens in the province. And now, apparently, *outside* of the province too. Who knows, maybe the next American shooting will be linked to Bill 21, too. After all, islamophobia doesn't stop at the international border either.

[Malthus]

I don't think you guys are exactly being fair. There are plenty of articles about the rising tide of anti Islamic bigotry in Ontario in response to this attack.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7931553/islamophobia-muslim-london-hate-crime-white-supremacy/

You are taking some reporter's question to Trudeau, and making of it an unwavering truth. Don't do that.

[Jacob]

We are discussing it here because one journalist decided to bring it up in a press conference.

Viper then decided this was a massive outrage and brought it up here, because the important part is of course what some idiot says about Quebec. That has completely derailed the discussion.

As far as I can tell, CC is the only one pursuing the "there's a connection" but even he seems to be backtracking to "Bill 21 is a symptom of the same problem - Islamophobia - as the attack". Which may be defensible, but is IMO a serious red herring given the current situation. If someone in Ontario perpetrates a hateful attack, we should not spend the immediate aftermath discussing problems in Quebec.

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure saying it is present everywhere is a denial that it is everywhere.

But that is not what is being said. What is being done is to establish a direct, causal link between a bill, *in a different province* which the anglo press has already decided is islamophobe, and a hateful crime - prior to examining any local causes.

After the mosque killings in Quebec, no one here rushed to denounce the existing islamophobia of Ontario as the inspiration of the killer. And surprisingly, no one in the anglo press suggested it stemmed from Alberta trash radio, or from Ezra Levant's Rebel media.

Quebec's atavistic racism is such a go-to trope of the English media, it's the default explanation for everything and anything ugly that happens in the province. And now, apparently, *outside* of the province too. Who knows, maybe the next American shooting will be linked to Bill 21, too. After all, islamophobia doesn't stop at the international border either.

I appreciate what you have to say about the hypocrisy. I think the failure to point out the Alberta trash radio, Rebel etc. is also a failing.  The climate of Islamophobia is fed by all of that and more.

I understand better and agree with the umbrage taken with only the Quebec legislation being singled out.  Thank you for explaining it to me.

[Zoupa]

It was repeatedly asked to Trudeau. He dodged the first 3-4-5 attempts but reporters insisted, not because they genuinely believe there's a link but probably at the behest of their bosses.

It was also repeatedly brought up to the leader of the Bloc Québecois, who kinda snapped after reporters' insistence.

I agree that it's not what should be discussed with regards to this incident. The fact that the questions were even asked shows the media knows it'll get clicks. As to why it does get clicks, well, we all know why.

[crazy canuck]

We are discussing it here because one journalist decided to bring it up in a press conference.

Viper then decided this was a massive outrage and brought it up here, because the important part is of course what some idiot says about Quebec. That has completely derailed the discussion.

As far as I can tell, CC is the only one pursuing the "there's a connection" but even he seems to be backtracking to "Bill 21 is a symptom of the same problem - Islamophobia - as the attack". Which may be defensible, but is IMO a serious red herring given the current situation. If someone in Ontario perpetrates a hateful attack, we should not spend the immediate aftermath discussing problems in Quebec.

When the fuck did I say there were causation.  My point has always been it is idiocy to pretend that Bill 21 is not influenced by Islamophobia and that Islamophobia manifests itself in many ways, including these murders. 

[Zoupa]

The difference of course is that Quebec has enacted legislation which is contrary to the Charter and does disproportionately affect Muslims.  So Jacob, actually a fair question to have asked.

hmmmm...

[crazy canuck]

The difference of course is that Quebec has enacted legislation which is contrary to the Charter and does disproportionately affect Muslims.  So Jacob, actually a fair question to have asked.

hmmmm...

Yeah, Islamophobia was a factor in the creation of the legislation and is a factor in this attack. It does not stop at the border.  Quebec is the only province in Canada to pass legislation contrary to the Charter based on Islamophobia, so fair question.

That the reporter did not ask about trash coming from the rest of the country is a valid criticism, but is not a get out of jail free card for Quebec.

[Jacob]

It was repeatedly asked to Trudeau. He dodged the first 3-4-5 attempts but reporters insisted, not because they genuinely believe there's a link but probably at the behest of their bosses.

It was also repeatedly brought up to the leader of the Bloc Québecois, who kinda snapped after reporters' insistence.

I agree that it's not what should be discussed with regards to this incident. The fact that the questions were even asked shows the media knows it'll get clicks. As to why it does get clicks, well, we all know why.

Do we know which outlets these reporters were representing? Because it's pretty shit.

[Valmy]

That the reporter did not ask about trash coming from the rest of the country is a valid criticism, but is not a get out of jail free card for Quebec.

Yes it is a huge problem the fact that English Canada just irrationally loves and idealizes Quebec. They just look over there to Quebec and see nothing but goodness and light and are blind to Quebec's flaws. It is finally time you guys stop giving Quebec and pass on everything. Damn. Say something critical about them for once.

Yeah, Islamophobia was a factor in the creation of the legislation and is a factor in this attack. It does not stop at the border.  Quebec is the only province in Canada to pass legislation contrary to the Charter based on Islamophobia, so fair question.

Just want to point out Islam was not harmed in this attack. People were. Muslims, and just because you are a Muslim doesn't even mean you endorse all the ideas of Islam.

I hate Scientology and manipulative cults, however I don't think this means I endorse persecution of members of these kinds of groups. Lets not conflate the two.

This law is bad because it impacts the rights of people, not because it goes against Islam. Lots of laws in Canada are directly opposite to many of the ideas of traditional Islam, but I don't think you would call them bigoted in anyway.

[Malthus]

It was repeatedly asked to Trudeau. He dodged the first 3-4-5 attempts but reporters insisted, not because they genuinely believe there's a link but probably at the behest of their bosses.

It was also repeatedly brought up to the leader of the Bloc Québecois, who kinda snapped after reporters' insistence.

I agree that it's not what should be discussed with regards to this incident. The fact that the questions were even asked shows the media knows it'll get clicks. As to why it does get clicks, well, we all know why.

Because it generates outrage and controversy, and hence views and clicks.

Needless to say, it has been one hundred percent successful. Here we are, discussing that instead of the real problems.

Note who it worked on ...