[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with racism in Quebec. And I don't shy away from critiquing Quebec when I think it is deserved.

It is just an alien concept to most people there, as "blackface" wasn't a thing in Quebec.

It also wasn't much of a thing in English Canada, which is why I suspect the average English Canadian, just like their counterparts in Quebec, isn't all that outraged about it. Most people I've seen think it is funny rather than deeply outrageous, mostly because Trudeau himself makes such a display of being politically correct, so it is amusing to see him 'caught out'. You don't get a feeling of real anger about it. More like 'he really ought to have known better'.   

Journalists are another matter - the ones in English Canada are, I think, far more plugged in to the zeitgeist of journalism south of the border. So they make a big deal about it, because it would be more of a big deal in the US, which has more of a history of that sort of thing.

It is incorrect to say that blackface wasn't a thing, in either Quebec or English Canada.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/canadas-surprising-history-of-blackface/598468/

I think, rather, that because we have such a smaller black population, we just haven't had to deal with or recognize that history the same way the US has.

[Admiral Yi]

It has a really freaky history over here. It is one of our first big pop culture things (might even be the first one...) and left a huge cultural legacy that is both really important but also shameful and embarrassing. So yeah we get pretty fucking triggered by it.

It's interesting to me how blackface came to be perceived as shameful.  AFAIK it was an act of emulation and not mockery.  Al Jolsen was the biggest star of his day and he was a straight up singer, not a lampooner.

I'm a little surprised Trudeau has been this long in politics and no oppo research has dug up these pictures before.

[Barrister]

I'm a little surprised Trudeau has been this long in politics and no oppo research has dug up these pictures before.

I know, I'm a little disappointed in the Conservative Party on this one.

I think it was just that he has been in politics long enough that everyone assumed he'd already been thoroughly vetted.

[Valmy]

It's interesting to me how blackface came to be perceived as shameful.  AFAIK it was an act of emulation and not mockery.  Al Jolsen was the biggest star of his day and he was a straight up singer, not a lampooner.

It was both. Musical performances and comedy skits. The tropes of the skits have most of our common tropes: dumb ass dad, long suffering mom, out of control young boy, and more. Now I don't think this is where those tropes originated but they sure got popularized this way. Plus most of the music was basically the pop music of the mid 19th century, so it was definitely enjoyed as music not just to laugh to black people. I don't really understand entirely what kind of cultural forces were at work with those things. But, of course, I don't really enjoy thinking about it much.

[Barrister]

Quebecers are a little bit racist, therefore they don't see anything wrong with Trudeau's display of racism.

One day, Quebec should receive the appropriate recognition for serving as the Other of English Canada, that allows it to point fingers and ignore its own racism.

I think you're wrong - it's the United States that Canadians point fingers to, to allow us to ignore our own racism.

But it's really hard to escape the obvious bigotry behind Bill 21.  I think it is significant that although it has been threatened, that this is the first time the Notwithstanding clause has been used in Canada in 30 years.

[Malthus]

I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with racism in Quebec. And I don't shy away from critiquing Quebec when I think it is deserved.

It is just an alien concept to most people there, as "blackface" wasn't a thing in Quebec.

It also wasn't much of a thing in English Canada, which is why I suspect the average English Canadian, just like their counterparts in Quebec, isn't all that outraged about it. Most people I've seen think it is funny rather than deeply outrageous, mostly because Trudeau himself makes such a display of being politically correct, so it is amusing to see him 'caught out'. You don't get a feeling of real anger about it. More like 'he really ought to have known better'.   

Journalists are another matter - the ones in English Canada are, I think, far more plugged in to the zeitgeist of journalism south of the border. So they make a big deal about it, because it would be more of a big deal in the US, which has more of a history of that sort of thing.

It is incorrect to say that blackface wasn't a thing, in either Quebec or English Canada.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/canadas-surprising-history-of-blackface/598468/

I think, rather, that because we have such a smaller black population, we just haven't had to deal with or recognize that history the same way the US has.

Your source is an odd one.

It says:

Howard reports that "minstrelsy was very common throughout Canada into the 1970s," long after minstrel shows had become socially taboo—not to say extinct—in the United States. (Bashir Mohamed rounds up a few examples of 20th-century shows in Canada.)

This is attached to this link:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/minstrel-show-1964-worlds-fair-180951239/

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with minstrel shows in Canada.

And this link:

https://twitter.com/BashirMohamed/status/995794758265028608

Which shows three examples, the latest in 1935.

Which again, doesn't support the point that such shows were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s".

In short, the claim is suspect. No doubt some "minstrel shows" appeared in Canada - we are after all on the same continent as the US - but the notion that they were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s" strikes me as completely untrue; and true or not, the evidence provided doesn't support it at all.

Seems shoddy to me.

[The Brain]

AFAIK The Atlantic is an opinion page and doesn't fact check.

[Barrister]

Which again, doesn't support the point that such shows were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s".

In short, the claim is suspect. No doubt some "minstrel shows" appeared in Canada - we are after all on the same continent as the US - but the notion that they were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s" strikes me as completely untrue; and true or not, the evidence provided doesn't support it at all.

Seems shoddy to me.

I feel like you're picking one particular claim (that minstrel shows ran into the 1970s) that may be suspect, and using it to question the entire article.

Here's another one.  I'm not familiar with this magazine, but it seems reputable, and the author is a professor at Ryerson University:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2018/10/29/the-complicated-history-of-canadian-blackface/

It only goes up to the 50s for actual minstrel shows for what its worth.

[Oexmelin]

There definitely were minstrel shows in Canada, and in Quebec. However, it should be noted that those shows in Montreal tended to take place in Anglophone venues - the YMCA, the Young Men Hebrew Association, traveling shows. etc. I am sure there were some Francophones attending these - but it never had cultural resonance, and therefore, never was something that needed to be fought against the francophone community. It is telling that the only reports of minstrel show in Quebec, at a francophone venue, dates 1) from 1830 ("Ethiopian Soirees") 2) 1907. After that, nothing.

The current knowledge of blackface unsurprisingly comes from American scholarship. And, to some extent, this is warranted: attitudes towards race in Canada were undoubtedly influenced by white American attitudes - and British attitude. But it had little influence, and therefore knowledge of its practice has declined sharply after the 1940s, in Francophone culture. Much more relevant, for instance, would be Normand Brathwaite's role in TV show, "Chez Denise" in the 1970s, or portrayal of Africans in French and Belgian children's books available in Quebec elementary schools in the 1920s and 1930s. But my concern is that scholars focus on the issue of blackface because there is a vibrant, and readily available scholarship (and history of activism) produced in the US - and it makes it easy to import the conclusions and the stakes. It also means that the contours of racism are defined by American terms, which is perhaps more problematic, because it prevents us from seeing what specific form of Canadian exclusions were produced. In short, we waste a lot of energy talking about blackface among francophones, when we really ought to talk about making Black Montreal so invisible to the Francophones, or the deleterious impact of Tintin.

[Zoupa]

According to Radio Canada, it is another two solitudes phenom. There is no outcry in Québec about Trudeau's blackface

Which is perhaps not surprising in the province that overrode the charter of rights in order to prevent people from working in the public service who wore religious symbols.

I guess I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Quebecers are a little bit racist, therefore they don't see anything wrong with Trudeau's display of racism.

Fuck you asshole

[Admiral Yi]

the deleterious impact of Tintin.

[Oexmelin]

the deleterious impact of Tintin.

[Sheilbh]

Which again, doesn't support the point that such shows were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s".

In short, the claim is suspect. No doubt some "minstrel shows" appeared in Canada - we are after all on the same continent as the US - but the notion that they were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s" strikes me as completely untrue; and true or not, the evidence provided doesn't support it at all.

Seems shoddy to me.

I feel like you're picking one particular claim (that minstrel shows ran into the 1970s) that may be suspect, and using it to question the entire article.

Here's another one.  I'm not familiar with this magazine, but it seems reputable, and the author is a professor at Ryerson University:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2018/10/29/the-complicated-history-of-canadian-blackface/

It only goes up to the 50s for actual minstrel shows for what its worth.

Did you ever get British TV? The Black and White Minstrel show here was on until 1978.

[Malthus]

Which again, doesn't support the point that such shows were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s".

In short, the claim is suspect. No doubt some "minstrel shows" appeared in Canada - we are after all on the same continent as the US - but the notion that they were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s" strikes me as completely untrue; and true or not, the evidence provided doesn't support it at all.

Seems shoddy to me.

I feel like you're picking one particular claim (that minstrel shows ran into the 1970s) that may be suspect, and using it to question the entire article.

Because the point being made in the article seemed to me so counter-intuitive: that Canadians were, in fact, even more into "minstrel shows" for longer, and thus presumably more racist, than Americans.

Imagine my shock when the point could not actually be sustained by the evidence cited.

Here's another one.  I'm not familiar with this magazine, but it seems reputable, and the author is a professor at Ryerson University:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2018/10/29/the-complicated-history-of-canadian-blackface/

It only goes up to the 50s for actual minstrel shows for what its worth.

There is no doubt that black minstrel shows existed and performed in various places in Canada, and no surprise either - they were a big deal in entertainment south of the border, and so Toronto and Montreal were natural stops on the same 'circuit' of performances, be they vaudeville or 'minstrel shows'. No doubt, local groups would also perform them.

What is different is that they were not deeply rooted in the Canadian experience. Canada lacked the history of large-scale agricultural slavery that these shows drew on for their experiences and motifs.

Authors of articles like the two you have cited constantly decry the Canadian "amnesia" about racism, and say things like 'Canada had slavery too', as if Canada has simply collectively forgotten its own deep south. Yes, Canada did at one time have slavery. However, it was small in scale, short in duration, and did not compare with the US experience. Yes, Canada hosted 'minstrel shows'. However, they did not resonate with a fundamental aspect of the Canadian experience - because Canada lacked large-scale, agricultural chattel slavery. No wonder Canadians are not as outraged over these things - they view them as basically an American import, and they aren't exactly wrong to do so.

[Malthus]

Which again, doesn't support the point that such shows were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s".

In short, the claim is suspect. No doubt some "minstrel shows" appeared in Canada - we are after all on the same continent as the US - but the notion that they were " ... very common throughout Canada into the 1970s" strikes me as completely untrue; and true or not, the evidence provided doesn't support it at all.

Seems shoddy to me.

I feel like you're picking one particular claim (that minstrel shows ran into the 1970s) that may be suspect, and using it to question the entire article.

Here's another one.  I'm not familiar with this magazine, but it seems reputable, and the author is a professor at Ryerson University:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2018/10/29/the-complicated-history-of-canadian-blackface/

It only goes up to the 50s for actual minstrel shows for what its worth.

Did you ever get British TV? The Black and White Minstrel show here was on until 1978.

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