[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Valmy]

Well that is just not true. But what is this amazing pragmatic plan they are blocking?

[saskganesh]

This is more depressing news, but then, I think, perhaps one of these Conservative leaders who keep getting elected will have a Road to Damascus moment and become a credible leader on climate change. Like LBJ and Civil Rights or Gorbachev with Glasnost.: risk every dime of political capital  in order to do The Right Thing and make a different future.

I wouldn't count on it anytime soon.  The left has monopilized environmental protection and anyone pragmatic stands accused of killing the planet.

I think we have different definitions of the word pragmatic. Maybe it means something different in French, something like: business as usual.

[viper37]

Well that is just not true.

Today, Premier's office:

But what is this amazing pragmatic plan they are blocking?

well, for now, they ain't blocking anything because this government doen't listen to them.
But Québec Solidaire has promised to block every work being done in the National Assembly if the govt doesn't promise a plan that would satisfy them.


But, since the last few years:

• electrification of transports (electric buses where we can, electric trains for suburban transports, extended tramway line project for Quebec city [the left managed to delay it though, their loss, a 3rd bridge and new highways will be built before that...],
  
• not using our thermal power plante (singular) [ok, we don't actually need it.  Some kind of weird deal by a previous govt]
  
• Building windfarms combined with damns
  
• Trying as hard as we can to offload our electricity surplus on our less fortunate neighbours depending on fossile fuel plants
  
• phasing out non electrical/hybrid vehicles by 2040
  
• increase investments in public transit system, new metro line in Montreal [much, much more is needed and not just new circuits]
  
• participation in the carbon market with California and Ontario (they're leaving though )
  
• stupid green tax and green fund totally misused
  
• other things to come by the government who got elected 6 months ago
  

The bad news is, the 2 previous govt gave the go ahead to a new cement refinery.  Just this refinery will pollute as much as all our other industries combined   And they are exempted from the carbon market/tax

[viper37]

I think we have different definitions of the word pragmatic. Maybe it means something different in French, something like: business as usual.

I have a few, sincere questions:
a) do you consider the current Liberal government to be a champion of environmental issues?
b) what have they done differently from Harper?
c) will the carbon tax be the promised be all end all miracle (since there is no other Liberal plan to reduce CO2 emissions)


EDIT: I don't get it... formatting is all crazy tonight...

[viper37]

Maxime Bernier makes a strange post on FB, almost equating the protection of Notre-Dame-de-Paris with the protection of our canadian culture...

Maxime Bernier uses NDP fire to attack the left

Short english summary, not a perfect translation:

Code Select Expand


The NDP fire was a sad tragedy.
This reminds us that our occidental civilization, its traditions, its values are fragile.

Like its great buildings.[...]
It goes the same for Canadian identity, our way of life

It has been subjected to multiple assaults by the Trudeau govt[...]

We need to stop changing our laws to comform to the left latest crazy ideas.

We need less govt intrusion
Less taxes

Less immigration

The Popular party is the only one really willing to protect our identity.

[crazy canuck]

I think we have different definitions of the word pragmatic. Maybe it means something different in French, something like: business as usual.

I have a few, sincere questions:
a) do you consider the current Liberal government to be a champion of environmental issues?
b) what have they done differently from Harper?
c) will the carbon tax be the promised be all end all miracle (since there is no other Liberal plan to reduce CO2 emissions)


EDIT: I don't get it... formatting is all crazy tonight...

A no
B introduced the carbon tax; allowed federal scientists to talk about the effects of climate change; but not much more
C no it is not.  Much more needs to be done but it is a good start.


The main problem we have now is people have their heads in the sand about the urgency of the problem.  The election of a government in Alberta that thinks increasing oil production is a long term solution is a very good example of how short sighted our politics are.

[saskganesh]

I think we have different definitions of the word pragmatic. Maybe it means something different in French, something like: business as usual.

I have a few, sincere questions:
a) do you consider the current Liberal government to be a champion of environmental issues?
b) what have they done differently from Harper?
c) will the carbon tax be the promised be all end all miracle (since there is no other Liberal plan to reduce CO2 emissions)


EDIT: I don't get it... formatting is all crazy tonight...

Alright

a) champion is too strong. They are advocates really. Their environmental track record with regards to the atmosphere is not strong enough. But it is better than we have had before.
b) putting a price on carbpn and actually implementing it, which is significant.
c) they are hoping that by pricing pollution, the market (including businesses and consumers) will respond rationally.

[Grey Fox]

Viper is right, we would be blocking a pragmatic plan but the right isn't coming forward with one. It is just spewing the same dumb but the economy! speech they always do.

[Valmy]

Well I certainly agree that environmentalists ironically make very fickle friends for those of us pushing to change energy generation sources. They make the perfect the enemy of the good constantly. But many (most?) Leftists don't give that many shits about the environment.

But the Right are typically just outright our opponents rather than just really nutty people we have to put up with. I had a hope there for a minute that as solar and wind became profitable they would come over fully to our side and damn that seemed like it was happening but now a full on reactionary rightwing backlash is underway. I can only hope it will be short-lived.

[Malthus]

Well I certainly agree that environmentalists ironically make very fickle friends for those of us pushing to change energy generation sources. They make the perfect the enemy of the good constantly. But many (most?) Leftists don't give that many shits about the environment.

But the Right are typically just outright our opponents rather than just really nutty people we have to put up with. I had a hope there for a minute that as solar and wind became profitable they would come over fully to our side and damn that seemed like it was happening but now a full on reactionary rightwing backlash is underway. I can only hope it will be short-lived.

Yup, exactly.

The nuts on the left generally make the perfect the enemy of the good - the nuts on the right simply hate the good. 

[Barrister]

Well I certainly agree that environmentalists ironically make very fickle friends for those of us pushing to change energy generation sources. They make the perfect the enemy of the good constantly. But many (most?) Leftists don't give that many shits about the environment.

But the Right are typically just outright our opponents rather than just really nutty people we have to put up with. I had a hope there for a minute that as solar and wind became profitable they would come over fully to our side and damn that seemed like it was happening but now a full on reactionary rightwing backlash is underway. I can only hope it will be short-lived.

Too bring it back to Canadian politics, one of the things that doomed Notley's NDP here in Alberta was their concept called "social licence".

They felt that if energy-producing Alberta voluntarily enacted some measures like a carbon tax, and an overall cap on carbon output from the oilsands, that would ease acceptance of our energy industry and ease the building of pipelines.  It failed completely.  The environmentalists saw it only as a first step, and made it clear they just want to shut down oil and gas production entirely.

[Valmy]

Well I certainly agree that environmentalists ironically make very fickle friends for those of us pushing to change energy generation sources. They make the perfect the enemy of the good constantly. But many (most?) Leftists don't give that many shits about the environment.

But the Right are typically just outright our opponents rather than just really nutty people we have to put up with. I had a hope there for a minute that as solar and wind became profitable they would come over fully to our side and damn that seemed like it was happening but now a full on reactionary rightwing backlash is underway. I can only hope it will be short-lived.

Too bring it back to Canadian politics, one of the things that doomed Notley's NDP here in Alberta was their concept called "social licence".

They felt that if energy-producing Alberta voluntarily enacted some measures like a carbon tax, and an overall cap on carbon output from the oilsands, that would ease acceptance of our energy industry and ease the building of pipelines.  It failed completely.  The environmentalists saw it only as a first step, and made it clear they just want to shut down oil and gas production entirely.

Shutting down gas production is really stupid short term. It is that kind of nonsense that pisses me off so much. Until battery storage is a regular feature of an energy grid (and we are very close) we need gas for a low emissions baseload. This is a good example of the environmentalists not thinking about the next step but trying to achieve perfection.

[crazy canuck]

Well I certainly agree that environmentalists ironically make very fickle friends for those of us pushing to change energy generation sources. They make the perfect the enemy of the good constantly. But many (most?) Leftists don't give that many shits about the environment.

But the Right are typically just outright our opponents rather than just really nutty people we have to put up with. I had a hope there for a minute that as solar and wind became profitable they would come over fully to our side and damn that seemed like it was happening but now a full on reactionary rightwing backlash is underway. I can only hope it will be short-lived.

Too bring it back to Canadian politics, one of the things that doomed Notley's NDP here in Alberta was their concept called "social licence".

They felt that if energy-producing Alberta voluntarily enacted some measures like a carbon tax, and an overall cap on carbon output from the oilsands, that would ease acceptance of our energy industry and ease the building of pipelines.  It failed completely.  The environmentalists saw it only as a first step, and made it clear they just want to shut down oil and gas production entirely.

And here we have a very good example of a right winger being the enemy of the good.  BB has children who are going to suffer the consequences when warming increases more than 1.5 C but all he can focus on is what might affect oil and gas production.

[viper37]

The main problem we have now is people have their heads in the sand about the urgency of the problem.  The election of a government in Alberta that thinks increasing oil production is a long term solution is a very good example of how short sighted our politics are.

I agree, but there was/is a lot of problems with the way information is communicated by ecologist groups.
See, I remember in 2003, the Quebec government wanted to allow a ski station to expand its activity over part of a mountain and in exchange, create a protected park for all that was left of the mountain (the major part of it).  As it was before, any new government could have delivered an environmental authorization to build condos, houses, whatever in all of the mountain.

What was the left reaction to this idea?  "We will not ski 10 years from now, winter will be over, it will be a thing of the past on Montreal's south shore of the St-Lawrence".   (Steven Guilbault)

Or even better:
"We (Greenpeace) will not work with the Quebec Green Party on environmental issues because they are a right wing political party".  (Steven Guilbault)

And what do you think happens when leftist greens say such silly things?  It gives fuel to their opponents, and it makes its way into the minds of the average people.

I blame the left for the sorry state we are in now.  Had they used a pragmatic approach, this issue might have been solved like the acid rain and ozone problems were mostly solved.

[Valmy]

Look there will always be extremist people saying ridiculous things and radical people are typically going to be drawn into political activism. So if we must silence all fanatics in order for the sane people to be listened to then sanity will never prevail.