[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

Ok, but she was the one in the room and so has direct knowledge. She is a former justice minister, a former crown prosecutor and she is being advised by a former justice of the SCC so her legal interpretation is likely robust.  I think her view was a considered one.

Is an appeal to authority all you've got?

She was the one in the room so I'll defer to her evidence about the facts of the case.  But not about how those facts should be interpreted in law.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, but she was the one in the room and so has direct knowledge. She is a former justice minister, a former crown prosecutor and she is being advised by a former justice of the SCC so her legal interpretation is likely robust.  I think her view was a considered one.

Is an appeal to authority all you've got?

She was the one in the room so I'll defer to her evidence about the facts of the case.  But not about how those facts should be interpreted in law.

I am relying on the fact she was there, knows all the relevant information and knows all the relevant law.  You on the other hand are piecing together your understanding from internet articles and the Conservative party line.  The key issue in a criminal proceeding is intent.  She is the best placed to judge that.

Pro Tip.  If a direct witness gives evidence in a case and the other side relies on it, don't tell the judge they are simply appealing to authority 

edit: put another way, she was asked by the Committee whether it was illegal.  If she had said yes, you and the Conservatives would be making much of that.  You can't ignore her negative answer just because you don't like it.

[viper37]

I have been doing some more reading about it and I am still unconvinced that anything improper occurred even if everything she said is true.

reminds me of the people in total denial about the sponsorship scandal even after the Gommery inquiry...
they used political arguments to try and sway her mind.  "Our boss is going to lose in Quebec if you don't comply".  That is illegal, apparently.
the rest of the story, you can believe it's much ado about nothing, others won't.

You seem certain what occurred was illegal. 

Original link

If you use Chrome, you can translate the whole page.  I can't seeam to get an english translation of the entire page.

According to the hard-hitting testimony of the former Liberal minister, Mr. Trudeau and his entourage crossed three red lines. They would have invoked partisan political arguments to convince her, which the law proscribes; they would have put repeated and sustained pressure on him from September to mid-December; and according to his interpretation, they made him "veiled threats" of dismissal three times.

That seems illegal to me.

[crazy canuck]

That seems illegal to me.

Ok, but the lawyer who was in the room (the then minister of justice) disagrees with your assessment.

[Malthus]

Trudeau  playing the part

I'd just like to add that this has been my impression of him since forever. Crancking up the Progressive to 11 was really cringy.

"Mr. Trudeau, why have you dismissed a female, indigenous Cabinet Minister of Justice for crossing you, despite your previously-stated support for empowering women, indigenous peoples, and commitment to justice?

"Because it's 2019." 

[viper37]

That seems illegal to me.

Ok, but the lawyer who was in the room (the then minister of justice) disagrees with your assessment.

Not my assessment.  The assessment of an editorialist for La Presse, the ultimate pro-Liberal newspaper in Quebec, an assessment coming from his lecture of the law.

Also the assessment of 5 former Justice Ministers/AG urging the RCMP to investigate:
Link

[crazy canuck]

That seems illegal to me.

Ok, but the lawyer who was in the room (the then minister of justice) disagrees with your assessment.

Not my assessment.  The assessment of an editorialist for La Presse, the ultimate pro-Liberal newspaper in Quebec, an assessment coming from his lecture of the law.

Also the assessment of 5 former Justice Ministers/AG urging the RCMP to investigate:
Link

Fine, the person in the position to best know all of the relevant circumstances and legal principles disagrees with the conclusions being drawn by you others in the press.

[crazy canuck]

Ha, good headline in the Globe (paywall) "Trudeau is uniting all of Canada - against him".  That about sums it up.

So question is, how long before the long knives come out - and will the former minister run for the leadership of the party if that happens?  My magic 8 ball says..... "certainly possible"

[Barrister]

Ha, good headline in the Globe (paywall) "Trudeau is uniting all of Canada - against him".  That about sums it up.

So question is, how long before the long knives come out - and will the former minister run for the leadership of the party if that happens?  My magic 8 ball says..... "certainly possible"

The person who plants the knife in the back of the sitting PM almost never gets the position themselves.

I don't know if there's anyone behind the scenes with enough power and influence to pull of a coup though.  It's certainly different from the Chretien/Martin dance for several years ago.  Remember Trudeau won his leadership race in a landslide, getting over 80% of the votes.

I wouldn't rule it out - in particular if Liberal poll numbers continue to fall, but I think it unlikely.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, you are probably right about the unlikelihood that she becomes leader.

But I would not discount the possibility there is a lot of polling going on right now which is concluding that they are going to lose the election under Trudeau but have a good chance with x candidate.

[viper37]

Fine, the person in the position to best know all of the relevant circumstances and legal principles disagrees with the conclusions being drawn by you others in the press.

even when the ethics commissioner publishes its report and blame Trudeau, you will still defend the party.

Meanwhile, here's the NYT take on the affaire:
Link

[crazy canuck]

Now you can see the future - impressive.

[viper37]

Now you can see the future - impressive.

it's a gift I have.  I predicted Trudeau would be a bad Prime Minister, after all. 

[viper37]

Jane Philpott is gone.  She can't abandon her principles to defend this government.

https://twitter.com/janephilpott/status/1102660614307172352/photo/1

[crazy canuck]

Wow, that is a bombshell - a well respected minister.