[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

I like how all three parties declared themselves the winners...and they might all be right.

Yeah.

If the stakes were not so low I would find it fascinating.

Yeah, none of them are likely fuck up the place to the degree that's normal in your part of the world so the stakes are definitely lower.

[Valmy]

Yeah, none of them are likely fuck up the place to the degree that's normal in your part of the world so the stakes are definitely lower.

Local government doesn't impact you much when you don't live there. Even Greg Abbott cannot screw you up that much.

[Barrister]

So what's the word on the Green Party anyways.  Are they just trying to out-left the NDP, or do they have some kind of "third way" approach they're trying to pull off.  And do they have many policies beyond the environment?

[Jacob]

So what's the word on the Green Party anyways.  Are they just trying to out-left the NDP, or do they have some kind of "third way" approach they're trying to pull off.  And do they have many policies beyond the environment?

I've heard it argued that the current leadership clique is essentially "Conservatives who agree with the Conservative party except when it comes to the environment," but this is just hearsay as far as I'm concerned. It is, however, a fact that Weaver (the current leader of the Greens) has worked with the BC Liberals against the NDP in the past.

So I don't think the Greens can automatically be cast as out-lefting the NDP on issues other than environmentalism (where the NDP still has the pro-union, pro-industry pressure).

[viper37]

But if the current seat totals hold, the Greens, with an historic win of three seats, have the balance of power.  It will be very interesting to see what will happen next.

Greens forming part of the government.  What has the world come to

Hopefully reacting to what people like you want to make it into. 

Coruscant?

[viper37]

I like how all three parties declared themselves the winners...and they might all be right.

If the stakes were not so low I would find it fascinating.

In Quebec elections, the winner and the loser are seperated by no more than 5% at most elections since the 90s.  The loser always claim a moral victory of some sort and complains about the unfairness of having so few representative for so much of the popular vote.

[Barrister]

So what's the word on the Green Party anyways.  Are they just trying to out-left the NDP, or do they have some kind of "third way" approach they're trying to pull off.  And do they have many policies beyond the environment?

I've heard it argued that the current leadership clique is essentially "Conservatives who agree with the Conservative party except when it comes to the environment," but this is just hearsay as far as I'm concerned. It is, however, a fact that Weaver (the current leader of the Greens) has worked with the BC Liberals against the NDP in the past.

So I don't think the Greens can automatically be cast as out-lefting the NDP on issues other than environmentalism (where the NDP still has the pro-union, pro-industry pressure).

I'm looking at their official platform.  They (of course) have detailed policy proposals on the environment.  They have an eclectic collection of policies on other areas (all of which involve spending more money).  There is no mention of taxes, and their policy on the economy is to "appoint a commission to look at the economy".

[crazy canuck]

So what's the word on the Green Party anyways.  Are they just trying to out-left the NDP, or do they have some kind of "third way" approach they're trying to pull off.  And do they have many policies beyond the environment?

I've heard it argued that the current leadership clique is essentially "Conservatives who agree with the Conservative party except when it comes to the environment," but this is just hearsay as far as I'm concerned. It is, however, a fact that Weaver (the current leader of the Greens) has worked with the BC Liberals against the NDP in the past.

So I don't think the Greens can automatically be cast as out-lefting the NDP on issues other than environmentalism (where the NDP still has the pro-union, pro-industry pressure).

A little context is in order I think.  In the later part of the 2000s Premier Campbell struck a task force to advise government on what steps should be taken to address climate change.  Weaver, now Green Party leader, was part of that group.  It developed recommendations which included a carbon tax which would be increased over time.  The recommendation was accepted and implemented by the government.  As an aside, exactly the kind of science based decision making the NDP now says should occur in relation to government policy.

The NDP reacted by condemning the move and they ran in the 2009? election on a platform to "axe the tax".  That position put the NDP in direct conflict with the environmentalists like Dr. Suzuki, Sapora Berman and Weaver, all of who were very critical of the NDP for using cynical politics to get elected at the expense of what they saw as very good environmental and public policy.  There was a very public blow up between Suzuki and Bill Teilman (NDP strategist and communications guy) over the issue at the time (and to digress again, for that reason it will be no surprise that Suzuki who was a one time staunch NDP supporter, supported the Greens since that time.

It was a huge political risk for the Liberals to stick to the policy and actually increase the carbon tax on schedule.  There was a lot of talk that the "Conservatives" in the party would leave over the issue and the provincial Conservatives did indeed enjoy an uptick in support during the 2009 election.  But the Liberals stuck to their policy which earned them kudos from the environmental movement.

So, is it a "fact" that Weaver has worked with the Liberals against the NDP?  I think it is far more accurate to say that it is a fact that Weaver was part of the non-partisan group of experts who recommended the carbon tax policy and that when the NDP campaigned on axing the tax he was critical of their policy.  He was a climate scientist and it was his idea after all.

The suggestion that the people who run the Greens are really Conservatives is laughable.

[Barrister]

I got my Conservative Party leadership ballot in the mail today. 

Holy shit is it ever a confusing mess.  First the ballot itself - you have to rank the candidates 1-10 in a bubble scan sheet (I only went up to 1-5 because really, what was the point of ranking candidates with so little chance to win).

Then you have to put that ballot inside one envelope.

Then you put the first ballot, together with a photocopy of your ID, and a second piece of paper where you attest you are a valid voter, inside a second envelope.  Then you send that off in the mail.

That is some hard to follow shit.  And all likely for not - since votes are normalized per riding, and I live in Alberta, my vote counts for very, very little.

But like hell I would miss this vote.

[Barrister]

My top five were:

Bernier
Chong
O'Toole
Scheer
Raitt

[Jacob]

The suggestion that the people who run the Greens are really Conservatives is laughable.

Fair enough - I was repeating what I'd heard

Thanks for the details on the relationship between Weaver, the NDP, and the BC Liberals. I think my bottom line conclusion still stands though - it would be an error to assume the Greens are simply an attempt to "out left" the NDP, or to assume that they're automatically more likely to favour working with the NDP over the Liberals, given the history you set out.

[Jacob]

My top five were:

Bernier
Chong
O'Toole
Scheer
Raitt

Interesting that you put Chong as your second choice. What's your rationale there?

[crazy canuck]

The suggestion that the people who run the Greens are really Conservatives is laughable.

Fair enough - I was repeating what I'd heard

Thanks for the details on the relationship between Weaver, the NDP, and the BC Liberals. I think my bottom line conclusion still stands though - it would be an error to assume the Greens are simply an attempt to "out left" the NDP, or to assume that they're automatically more likely to favour working with the NDP over the Liberals, given the history you set out.

I agree.  The interesting point for me is that based on what you have been hearing the NDP are doing their best to suggest the reason the Greens are more likely to cooperate with the Liberals is because somehow the Greens are really "Conservative".  The irony is that it is actually the NDP who have been more "Conservative" in their approach to climate policy and only recently they have put on a show of supporting policies to reduce greenhouse emissions.  On the policies that matter most to the Greens, the Liberals are historically much more trustworthy political partners.  However, the Greens will be a bit wary of the Liberals under the present Premier since she cancelled the planned escalation in the carbon tax.

So it is not so obvious what the Greens will do.  But I find it telling that the NDP appear to be putting out rhetoric like what you have been hearing.

[Barrister]

My top five were:

Bernier
Chong
O'Toole
Scheer
Raitt

Interesting that you put Chong as your second choice. What's your rationale there?

Pity vote for daring to support a carbon tax.  It's a good policy (though not when it's done like the Alberta NDP did), so makes up for his rather lackluster policies elsewhere.  He's quite unlikely to win however.

[Jacob]

I agree.  The interesting point for me is that based on what you have been hearing the NDP are doing their best to suggest the reason the Greens are more likely to cooperate with the Liberals is because somehow the Greens are really "Conservative".  The irony is that it is actually the NDP who have been more "Conservative" in their approach to climate policy and only recently they have put on a show of supporting policies to reduce greenhouse emissions.  On the policies that matter most to the Greens, the Liberals are historically much more trustworthy political partners.  However, the Greens will be a bit wary of the Liberals under the present Premier since she cancelled the planned escalation in the carbon tax.

So it is not so obvious what the Greens will do.  But I find it telling that the NDP appear to be putting out rhetoric like what you have been hearing.

Heh, yeah fair enough. It was pre-election rhetoric, so it may have been intended to swing Green-inclined NDP voters (or vice versa) to the NDP. Haven't heard anything like it since the actual election