[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Admiral Yi]

BTW Bieber, it is possible to have a sophomoric belief in free markets.  Don't know if it's accurate in this case, but it is possible.

[crazy canuck]

That agreement seems to be part of the current problem - in Canada, and elsewhere in the world. When left-wing parties and right-wing parties agree that government is management -- and above all,  budget management --, they have to distinguish themselves by over-investing other forms of public engagement and statement of values. It detracts from the sense of powerlessness that comes with deference to the iron cage of economics. It doesn't have to be this way. Trudeau Jr is successful right now because he is able to occupy that symbolic ground in ways Harper never could.

That is the important role the NDP plays in our political system.  The Liberals and Conservatives get to poach the best of their ideas.  While some might think that prudent financial management an "iron cage of economics" ignoring economics is likely worse.

[Oexmelin]

That is the important role the NDP plays in our political system.  The Liberals and Conservatives get to poach the best of their ideas.  While some might think that prudent financial management an "iron cage of economics" ignoring economics is likely worse.

Prudence is a political quality. It applies to more than just economics. What I oppose is the stance which makes politics determined by economics.

[Monoriu]

When I was in Vancouver, all I heard from the Chinese radio can be boiled down to "X party has a Chinese candidate; Y party does not.  Vote X!"   

[crazy canuck]

That is the important role the NDP plays in our political system.  The Liberals and Conservatives get to poach the best of their ideas.  While some might think that prudent financial management an "iron cage of economics" ignoring economics is likely worse.

Prudence is a political quality. It applies to more than just economics. What I oppose is the stance which makes politics determined by economics.

Sure but I haven't said that.   There are a lot of choices to be made within the resources available to government.  Ignoring the fact that resources are finite is, I suppose, also a choice.  But not a very good one.  And government can do a lot of things that don't necessarily require resources.

[Barrister]

I get it CC.

You want the Conservative Party to be an option to "keep the Liberals honest", but you actually don't believe in any particular conservative principles or values.  I've known this about you (and Malthus) for years and years.

No, I want the Conservatives not to be swayed for the Reformer minority.  Preston manning took his ball and went home causing decades of damage.  I don't want the party to be taken over by the same kind of nonsense.

I understand your point of view completely.  You want a return of the PC Party with none of those pesky "conservatives" in charge.

[Jacob]

I understand your point of view completely.  You want a return of the PC Party with none of those pesky "conservatives" in charge.

Seems to me he rejects your claim that your brand of Conservatism is the only legitimate one.

[Barrister]

That agreement seems to be part of the current problem - in Canada, and elsewhere in the world. When left-wing parties and right-wing parties agree that government is management -- and above all,  budget management --, they have to distinguish themselves by over-investing other forms of public engagement and statement of values. It detracts from the sense of powerlessness that comes with deference to the iron cage of economics. It doesn't have to be this way. Trudeau Jr is successful right now because he is able to occupy that symbolic ground in ways Harper never could.

Quite apart from that impoverishment of the notion of politics however, which affects the Liberals and the Conservatives, what I am shocked by is the difficulty from the Conservatives to articulate a positive notion of community (which ought to be a Conservative centerpiece) without catering to libertarian and reactionary strands. And these strands seem to be heavily infused with a sort of petty and mean vindictive spirit - to show those degenerates / leeches who's in charge - they have had it too easy for too long. 

So, BB, what's a positive definition of community for Conservatives?

I don't entirely know the answer, but I feel there should be an answer out there.  There should be a way to embrace traditional families as the bedrock of society, without shaming those who are different (LGBTQ).  To embrace the founding nations and heritages of Canada, while still welcoming the contributions of others.  That we should be able to talk about Canadian Values, without them being either boiled down to meaningless drivel, or to have them as code words for being anti-muslim.  That we should be able to genuinely celebrate Canada's history without whitewashing or ignoring the bits that are distasteful.

[Barrister]

I understand your point of view completely.  You want a return of the PC Party with none of those pesky "conservatives" in charge.

Seems to me he rejects your claim that your brand of Conservatism is the only legitimate one.

I have never, not once, heard Crazy Canuck identify himself as being a conservative.  He doesn't have a brand of conservatism.  He's a centrist.  Which is fine of course, all are entitled to their beliefs.  And I hope that the Conservative Party will be able to be appealing enough to CC and many other centrists to vote for.  BUt I hope the Conservative Party embraces the image of being a "big tent", home to both centrists and various flavour of conservatives.

[Oexmelin]

I don't entirely know the answer, but I feel there should be an answer out there.  There should be a way to embrace traditional families as the bedrock of society, without shaming those who are different (LGBTQ).  To embrace the founding nations and heritages of Canada, while still welcoming the contributions of others.  That we should be able to talk about Canadian Values, without them being either boiled down to meaningless drivel, or to have them as code words for being anti-muslim.  That we should be able to genuinely celebrate Canada's history without whitewashing or ignoring the bits that are distasteful.

I agree completely: I am just disappointed that it's not there.  I prefer disagreeing with decent people, like you, than with despicable assholes.

[crazy canuck]

I understand your point of view completely.  You want a return of the PC Party with none of those pesky "conservatives" in charge.

Seems to me he rejects your claim that your brand of Conservatism is the only legitimate one.

I have never, not once, heard Crazy Canuck identify himself as being a conservative.  He doesn't have a brand of conservatism.  He's a centrist.  Which is fine of course, all are entitled to their beliefs.  And I hope that the Conservative Party will be able to be appealing enough to CC and many other centrists to vote for.  BUt I hope the Conservative Party embraces the image of being a "big tent", home to both centrists and various flavour of conservatives.

You have a poor memory.

I am amused by the claims of conservative ideological purity from people who support the politicians with extreme views and radical views.

The next time you think you are following conservative values, give yourself a long look in the mirror and ask yourself why you support someone who doesn't.  Conservatism, at least the political philosophy I find appealing, is about incrementalism.  Not wholesale changes to economic and social institutions for the sake of a simplistic (and yes sophomoric) libertarian ideology.



     

[viper37]

Trudeau Jr is successful right now because he is able to occupy that symbolic ground in ways Harper never could.

He's successful because he is a pretty boy that women likes.
He promises everything and its contrary, and the same people complaining about lying politicians are voting for him.

I was once told Quebecers loved Bourassa because it reminded them of their own indecisiveness.  I guess the same can be said for Trudeau.  He's stupid and empty, he goes with the age of reality tv stars.

to show those degenerates / leeches who's in charge - they have had it too easy for too long. 

It seems they're not always wrong. Deltell has summoned Bombardier CEO's to the House of Commons to explain their fabulous raise.   'bout time someone reminded the leeches who's in charge

[viper37]

What I oppose is the stance which makes politics determined by economics.

Are there any such party in Canada?  I'd like to vote for such a party

Leave me alone with all your nonsense about how you religion is more important than my lack of religion.  Leave me alone with that gay pride thing.  Be gay and be happy, or bone something else, leave me out of it.  Get an abortion if you want, it's a medical practice like any other, all I want is to make sure schools are really teaching sex-ed classes, not something a 63 years old 1951 nun would teach.

Things are so simple when you think of the long term economic impacts of your decisions instead of attempting to please the crowd today.

It's politics, not The Voice.

[viper37]

There should be a way to embrace traditional families as the bedrock of society, without shaming those who are different (LGBTQ).

I don't think there's any need to embrace any of that.  And I think that just embracing something like that leads to shaming others who are different.

To embrace the founding nations and heritages of Canada, while still welcoming the contributions of others.

Well, the Liberals are wonderful at opposing one to the other, and they have legion of fans, even outside their core supporters.  I think it's starting to change only because some English canadians feel threatened now, as opposed to the past.  And that is what I predicted, btw.

That we should be able to talk about Canadian Values, without them being either boiled down to meaningless drivel, or to have them as code words for being anti-muslim.  That we should be able to genuinely celebrate Canada's history without whitewashing or ignoring the bits that are distasteful.

I agree on both these counts.

[Barrister]

There should be a way to embrace traditional families as the bedrock of society, without shaming those who are different (LGBTQ).

I don't think there's any need to embrace any of that.  And I think that just embracing something like that leads to shaming others who are different.

I disagree.  I think the evidence is pretty good that, on average, the best outcomes in raising children is when they are raised by their married biological parents.  And that raising children is absolutely essential not only to preserving our society, but our economy as well.

That doesn't mean that kids can't be well raised by single parents, adoptive parents, same sex parents, grandparents, or whatever.  But it's harder.  So I think that we should try to promote traditional families, but without shaming other kinds of families.