[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

it ain't different with Canada's darling.

[viper37]

235 government employees involved in the Super Hornet buying process had to sign lifetime NDAs.  No talking about that process.  Ever.

so much for transparency

What was it again with the Conservatives preventing their employees from speaking publicly?  Was it good or was it bad, from a Liberal point of view?  I just can't remember... Maybe a Liberal supporter will remind me

As a civil servant, I won't talk about government secrets, ever, with or without NDAs.   

that's what the former Minister of defense said.  But there are things that aren't secret that could answer some questions.

[Barrister]

No commentary on the Libs buying "stop-gap" Super Hornets without going through a formal bidding process?

I'm surprised the teflon Trudeau seems to have.  Harper took all kinds of flack on the fighter-jet file while not actually doing anything, and now Trudeau makes probably the worst of all possible decisions and gets no consequences whatsoever.

[viper37]

No commentary on the Libs buying "stop-gap" Super Hornets without going through a formal bidding process?

You don't read me anymore?

I'm surprised the teflon Trudeau seems to have.  Harper took all kinds of flack on the fighter-jet file while not actually doing anything, and now Trudeau makes probably the worst of all possible decisions and gets no consequences whatsoever.

Yes, this is what happens when leftists are in power.  Get used to it, the world is turning crazy.

[Barrister]

No commentary on the Libs buying "stop-gap" Super Hornets without going through a formal bidding process?

You don't read me anymore?

I'm surprised the teflon Trudeau seems to have.  Harper took all kinds of flack on the fighter-jet file while not actually doing anything, and now Trudeau makes probably the worst of all possible decisions and gets no consequences whatsoever.

Yes, this is what happens when leftists are in power.  Get used to it, the world is turning crazy.

I saw your comments, but I know your politics are similar to mine.

I was hoping to prod an opinion from some of our middle-to-leftist Canadian posters.

[Jacob]

No commentary on the Libs buying "stop-gap" Super Hornets without going through a formal bidding process?

I'm surprised the teflon Trudeau seems to have.  Harper took all kinds of flack on the fighter-jet file while not actually doing anything, and now Trudeau makes probably the worst of all possible decisions and gets no consequences whatsoever.

I don't care enough one way or the other. Realistically, people like me are going to have to have it explained to us why this is the worst possible decision over and over again a number of times by different people (the "neutral" media, lefty partisans, defense hawks, doves, Liberal true believers who just can stomach this one thing, neutral defense experts, et. al.) before we start caring.

Maybe in X years this bad decision (assuming you're right and it's terrible) will be seen as part of a pattern of bad decisions and it'll be bad; right now, who cares.

From a high level, Trudeau remains somewhat teflon coated because he's a reassuring, confident proponent of multiculturalism and softie caring "liberal values" in contrast to Harper (it'll be a bit before that comparison stops mattering, however just or unjust it may be) and now in contrast to Trump. On top of that, he does not seem uselessly wishy washy limp on defense (we're buying actual fighter jets, that's gotta be good for something) or business (lefties are crying about this that where the liberals aren't living up to expectations so that means they're not all about the nonsense).

Now that may all be a sham and undeserved, but that's the general perception I think. The liberals are relatively pragmatic, not selling out business and defense, yet remain huggable in a way that many (if not most) Canadians find a worthwhile reflection of how we see ourselves.

I expect you'll have to keep piling up the complaints about incompetence/ duplicity/ corruption over a number of years before they start sticking.

[Barrister]

No commentary on the Libs buying "stop-gap" Super Hornets without going through a formal bidding process?

I'm surprised the teflon Trudeau seems to have.  Harper took all kinds of flack on the fighter-jet file while not actually doing anything, and now Trudeau makes probably the worst of all possible decisions and gets no consequences whatsoever.

I don't care enough one way or the other. Realistically, people like me are going to have to have it explained to us why this is the worst possible decision over and over again a number of times by different people (the "neutral" media, lefty partisans, defense hawks, doves, Liberal true believers who just can stomach this one thing, neutral defense experts, et. al.) before we start caring.

Maybe in X years this bad decision (assuming you're right and it's terrible) will be seen as part of a pattern of bad decisions and it'll be bad; right now, who cares.

Here's the problem - the RCAF needs new planes.  Not immediately, but soon - I think they'd like to start taking deliveries in five years or so.

The main contenders for a replacement is of course the F-35, but also the Superhornet (unlikely, but possible, contenders also include planes from Eurofighter, Dassault, and Saab).  The military has been pretty consistent in wanting the F-35, but the Liberals by buying a selection of Superhornets without an open tender, is stacking the deck in favour of the Superhornet.

This is because now, no matter what, the RCAF is going to have a small number of Superhornets to fly and maintain.  It is vastly simpler to only have to train pilots, and maintain, a single kind of aircraft.  Even if the open comptetition later on concludes that, I dunno, the Dassault Rafale is the superior fighter, they maystill conclude that given the costs of maintaining two different types of aircraft they have to purchase more Superhornets.

Finally, there's the risk that having purchased a small number of fighters, the Liberals decide that's good enough and make a large-scale purchase.

[Jacob]

Here's the problem - the RCAF needs new planes.  Not immediately, but soon - I think they'd like to start taking deliveries in five years or so.

The main contenders for a replacement is of course the F-35, but also the Super Hornet (unlikely, but possible, contenders also include planes from Eurofighter, Dassault, and Saab).  The military has been pretty consistent in wanting the F-35, but the Liberals by buying a selection of Superhornets without an open tender, is stacking the deck in favour of the Superhornet.

This is because now, no matter what, the RCAF is going to have a small number of Super Hornets to fly and maintain.  It is vastly simpler to only have to train pilots, and maintain, a single kind of aircraft.  Even if the open comptetition later on concludes that, I dunno, the Dassault Rafale is the superior fighter, they maystill conclude that given the costs of maintaining two different types of aircraft they have to purchase more Super Hornets.

Finally, there's the risk that having purchased a small number of fighters, the Liberals decide that's good enough and make a large-scale purchase.

Your argument sounds legit to me.

I'm curious - who are we making happy by buying the Superhornets now (and potentially committing to them in the future)? Are there Canadian companies/ contractors involved? Are there American interest groups we're keeping happy?

Or is this a matter of picking one supplier with no real particular benefits?

What is the Liberal argument for buying the Super Hornets now?

[Barrister]

Here's the problem - the RCAF needs new planes.  Not immediately, but soon - I think they'd like to start taking deliveries in five years or so.

The main contenders for a replacement is of course the F-35, but also the Super Hornet (unlikely, but possible, contenders also include planes from Eurofighter, Dassault, and Saab).  The military has been pretty consistent in wanting the F-35, but the Liberals by buying a selection of Superhornets without an open tender, is stacking the deck in favour of the Superhornet.

This is because now, no matter what, the RCAF is going to have a small number of Super Hornets to fly and maintain.  It is vastly simpler to only have to train pilots, and maintain, a single kind of aircraft.  Even if the open comptetition later on concludes that, I dunno, the Dassault Rafale is the superior fighter, they maystill conclude that given the costs of maintaining two different types of aircraft they have to purchase more Super Hornets.

Finally, there's the risk that having purchased a small number of fighters, the Liberals decide that's good enough and make a large-scale purchase.

Your argument sounds legit to me.

I'm curious - who are we making happy by buying the Superhornets now (and potentially committing to them in the future)? Are there Canadian companies/ contractors involved? Are there American interest groups we're keeping happy?

Or is this a matter of picking one supplier with no real particular benefits?

What is the Liberal argument for buying the Super Hornets now?

I am suspicious of corruption (it's uncomfortably common in such purchases), but note I'm not alleging any.

Who is happy with this decision?  Well the big winner is Boeing, which manufactures the CF-18.  Not just the value of the contract itself, but there was some risk a little while ago they might have to stop production, and even potentially get out of the military airplane business.  Now, combined with purchases by Kuwait and Qatar, allows them to keep production rolling for at least five more years.

That also means the US is happy, because they like having two competing airplane manufacturers.

[Note: I googled all of this - I'm not this big of a military hardware geek]

[viper37]

I'm curious - who are we making happy by buying the Superhornets now (and potentially committing to them in the future)? Are there Canadian companies/ contractors involved? Are there American interest groups we're keeping happy?

You're making Boeing happy for sure.

Canadian companies are mostly invested in the F-35, Joint Strike Fighter.  Lots of Quebec businesses depend on the contract to go through.  I'm guessing Winnipeg will be the main benefactor in Canada if anything goes through here, but I highly doubt it.  Converting a civilian airplane assembly plant to a military one is not that easy.  Most of the work would be done by US&international contractors with the necessary security classification to produce the F18E used by the US Navy.


Or is this a matter of picking one supplier with no real particular benefits?

What is the Liberal argument for buying the Super Hornets now?

they tell us it's because we need emergency replacement now, but it's all a lie.  See the comments by Lt General Michael Hood, commander of the RCAF.  Our planes can operate beyond 2025 if necessary, but that means some more upgrade costs and increasing maintenance costs.  At some point, you want to avoid spending money on old stuff and by new one.

This is a repeat of the helicopter purchase scandal during the time of Jean Chrétien.

[Jacob]

I am suspicious of corruption (it's uncomfortably common in such purchases), but note I'm not alleging any.

This is legit. If/ when evidence of corruption comes out then I'll take notice (I think the Canadian political landscape is accepting of a low level of corruption as the price of "getting business done", though it is definitely possible to go beyond that).

Who is happy with this decision?  Well the big winner is Boeing, which manufactures the CF-18.  Not just the value of the contract itself, but there was some risk a little while ago they might have to stop production, and even potentially get out of the military airplane business.  Now, combined with purchases by Kuwait and Qatar, allows them to keep production rolling for at least five more years.

That also means the US is happy, because they like having two competing airplane manufacturers.

Curious to see if there will be any quid pro quo from Boeing.

I have no problem with keeping the US happy my means of defense purchases, so that seems a benefit to me if true.

[viper37]

The F-35 also keep the US happy.

[viper37]

Buying a French plane, they wouldn't care much, but buying a Russian plane... well, right now, Trump migh just kiss Trudeau.

Seriously, all we're saying is, if the F-35 is a bad plane for Canada, than show us.  Make a real bidding, not a closed one where everyone is forced to keep silence.  Actually, respect your fucking promise.  It was stupid to being with, once the decision had been made, the government should have gone through, unless there was evidence of corruption or any immoral act in the purchase process.

The F-35 isn't finished yet, and yes, there has been problems.  Maybe the Rafale is the best.  Maybe it's another one.  But I want to see the fucking analysis that was made.  Why they arrived at a conclusion that X is better than Y and Z.

[Jacob]

You're making Boeing happy for sure.

Canadian companies are mostly invested in the F-35, Joint Strike Fighter.  Lots of Quebec businesses depend on the contract to go through.  I'm guessing Winnipeg will be the main benefactor in Canada if anything goes through here, but I highly doubt it.  Most of the work would be done by US&international contractors with the necessary security classification to produce the F18E used by the US Navy.

So it doesn't seem the choice was made to benefit Canadian industry unless some future announcements are coming up.

they tell us it's because we need emergency replacement now, but it's all a lie.  See the comments by Lt General Michael Hood, commander of the RCAF.  Our planes can operate beyond 2025 if necessary, but that means some more upgrade costs and increasing maintenance costs.  At some point, you want to avoid spending money on old stuff and by new one.

Okay, so you think the argument is a lie. What is the real reason they're buying the Super Hornets now, then, if it's the reason they give us - namely that they think we need some new planes in the short term while we work out the long term plans?

It does not seem to be to benefit Canadian manufacturers, since they're not heavily involved.

What is the reason - inside Liberal decision making circles - they've made this decision? What's the reason they think it's a good call?

This is a repeat of the helicopter purchase scandal during the time of Jean Chrétien.

How so? What are the similarities?

[Barrister]

This is a repeat of the helicopter purchase scandal during the time of Jean Chrétien.

How so? What are the similarities?

The problem with the helicopter purchase was it cost the government hundreds of millions of dollars in cancellation penalties.

I've read that since Canada is a partner in the F-35 program there would be penalties if we withdrew, but I'm not sure of the quantum.