[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Zoupa]

So this isn't really a political story, but since this is the only "Canada" thread...

CBC's Fifth Estate reports Buffy St Marie isn't native, has been faking it.  They don't use the word, but that she's a "pretendian".

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/buffy-sainte-marie

So, reading the article, they certainly seem to have the goods on Buffy.  That she's from Boston, daughter of white parents.  That she's told multiple different stories over the years.  And she certainly did trade on the story of her being indigenous throughout her career.

But there is also a bit of "who cares" in that she's 81, fully retired from performing due to her age.  CBC did a very thorough investigation, spent a lot of time on this one - were those really resources worth spending?

But it's funny just how often this phenomenon comes up.


Edit: ninja'd by Viper.

The Piapot family said in a statement that allegations against Sainte-Marie are "hurtful, ignorant, colonial — and racist." They said the singer was adopted in the traditional way.

"We claim her as a member of our family and all of our family members are from the Piapot First Nation. To us, that holds far more weight than any paper documentation or colonial record keeping ever could," the family said.

The First Nations claim her as First Nation. That's good enough for me.

[Jacob]

You are such a whiny bitch sometimes Beeb. This is one of them.

[viper37]

The First Nations claim her as First Nation. That's good enough for me.

They she's adopted now.  It's different than what she claimed.

There's a lot of hypocrisy here from activists.

Someone born from white parents claim to be First Nations and speak for First Nations, then they become First Nation over time as the lie grows.

But wear rastas and its cultural appropriation.

[HVC]

You are such a whiny bitch sometimes Beeb. This is one of them.

I mean you did purposely make a dig at him, can't really act all indignant when your jab hits.

[HVC]

The First Nations claim her as First Nation. That's good enough for me.

They she's adopted now.  It's different than what she claimed.

There's a lot of hypocrisy here from activists.

Someone born from white parents claim to be First Nations and speak for First Nations, then they become First Nation over time as the lie grows.

But wear rastas and its cultural appropriation.

Not exactly the same. Although I guess a rastsfarian elder could welcome a white dude with dreads


Actually I don't think rastafarianism is racial.

[Barrister]

The Piapot family said in a statement that allegations against Sainte-Marie are "hurtful, ignorant, colonial — and racist." They said the singer was adopted in the traditional way.

"We claim her as a member of our family and all of our family members are from the Piapot First Nation. To us, that holds far more weight than any paper documentation or colonial record keeping ever could," the family said.

The First Nations claim her as First Nation. That's good enough for me.

So to be clear - it's not like anyone is accusing Buffy Ste. Marie of a crime.

And as the article outlines, she did at times merely claim to be adopted into the Piapot First Nation.  But at many other times she claimed to be native by blood.  Which appears to be completely made up.

Piapot First Nation is free to consider Buffy Ste. Marie as a member of their nation.  But she still misrepresented herself to the world over the course of her career.

[Barrister]

They she's adopted now.  It's different than what she claimed.

There's a lot of hypocrisy here from activists.

Someone born from white parents claim to be First Nations and speak for First Nations, then they become First Nation over time as the lie grows.

But wear rastas and its cultural appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is rather different.  Cultural appropriation is just a person of one culture adopting or using cultural aspects of another culture, but not claiming to be from that culture.

Personally, I think "cultural appropriation" is bullshit.  Using Buffy as an example, she's free to dress in first nations dress, sing first nations inspired songs.  But it does feel kind of wrong to claim to actually be first nations.

[HVC]

They she's adopted now.  It's different than what she claimed.

There's a lot of hypocrisy here from activists.

Someone born from white parents claim to be First Nations and speak for First Nations, then they become First Nation over time as the lie grows.

But wear rastas and its cultural appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is rather different.  Cultural appropriation is just a person of one culture adopting or using cultural aspects of another culture, but not claiming to be from that culture.

Personally, I think "cultural appropriation" is bullshit.  Using Buffy as an example, she's free to dress in first nations dress, sing first nations inspired songs.  But it does feel kind of wrong to claim to actually be first nations.

No one cares when people appropraite white people culture no more jeans or skateboards for anyone!

[HVC]

A lot of people shouting cultural appropriation are white people guarding the cultures of others, which is often hilarious.

[Sheilbh]

I think that the best politicians have their public persona closely aligned to their private persona.

Totally agree. Part of the job is communicating, including communicating themselves as a leader. So there is no politician who is not ultimately a crafted creation. Even the most "authentic" are very spun and have been since at least the 19th century.

But I think when it works best is when they remain rooted in some "reality" of themselves (to the extent there is anything like that). I think you can see it sometimes if their "reality" or perception of themselves doesn't actually match how they come across to others.

It makes me think of David Runciman's often repeated point that the public don't really care about politicians lying because that's a built-in assumption about politics and politicians. But, they absolutely hate hypocrisy. People hate being taken for fools or the sense that their public and private behaviour is very different. In a non-political area you also get it in work sometimes because I think the professional affect some people learn of how to behave in a workplace can, in other contexts or at other times, come across as fake - and especially if things are going bad or there's a lot of stress lots of people emphasise that they want that realness from people not the professional leader with talking points.

For me though - I hate the "I'd like to share a beer with that guy" test.  I was burned once in politics - supporting the glad-handling Stockwell Day over the bookish and nerdy Preston Manning.  Give me bookish and nerdy any day.

I suspect I may be in the minority in that assessment.

I don't know is my honest view and I don't think we know it's the slightly terrifying thing about democratic politics. I don't think there is one type of politician who is better than the other either at governing or electability, I think it entirely depends on the situation they face and different moments call for different skills. And the one inevitable reality of politics is that the situation they face as a PM/President etc will be different from the one they were elected to resolve. It is always a gamble to a very large extent by parties and voters. On the other hand I think of past elections, the options presented to voters and the situation and generally, with the benefit of hindsight, I think on balance voters almost always get it right.

With our system (unlike a Presidential system) it's very, very difficult to imagine a complete outsider suddenly breaking out at an election. It can happen but there's lots of obstacles to it, so most will have a similar thing of working their way up through the party, working their parliamentary colleagues etc - that might produce a certain sort of leader. Also politicians are by definition very, very weird people so I can't think of many I'd necessarily want to go for a drink with.... In the UK I think you'd probably have to go back to maybe Jim Callaghan

[Barrister]

But I think when it works best is when they remain rooted in some "reality" of themselves (to the extent there is anything like that). I think you can see it sometimes if their "reality" or perception of themselves doesn't actually match how they come across to others.

I mean, that's Donald Trump's superpower, isn't it?  What you see with Trump is what you get.  The man has no filter - you know exactly what he's thinking.  So even though he lies all the time (still waiting for Mexico to pay for the wall), he's very "authentic".

With our system (unlike a Presidential system) it's very, very difficult to imagine a complete outsider suddenly breaking out at an election. It can happen but there's lots of obstacles to it, so most will have a similar thing of working their way up through the party, working their parliamentary colleagues etc - that might produce a certain sort of leader. Also politicians are by definition very, very weird people so I can't think of many I'd necessarily want to go for a drink with.... In the UK I think you'd probably have to go back to maybe Jim Callaghan

I have to disagree with you here.  It certainly is possible for outsiders to break in.  Look at Jeremy Corbyn of course.  I mean yes he was in Parliament a long time but he certainly wasn't good at working with his parliamentary colleagues.

As for politicians you'd like to have a drink with - come on try and tell me Boris Johnson wouldn't be a hilarious drinking companion.  Didn't mean he was a great leader, but he had that kind of charm.

[HVC]

Boris seems like he'd be a sloppy annoying drunk, though. Lots of back slapping and knocking stuff over.

[crazy canuck]

So this isn't really a political story, but since this is the only "Canada" thread...

CBC's Fifth Estate reports Buffy St Marie isn't native, has been faking it.  They don't use the word, but that she's a "pretendian".

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/buffy-sainte-marie

So, reading the article, they certainly seem to have the goods on Buffy.  That she's from Boston, daughter of white parents.  That she's told multiple different stories over the years.  And she certainly did trade on the story of her being indigenous throughout her career.

But there is also a bit of "who cares" in that she's 81, fully retired from performing due to her age.  CBC did a very thorough investigation, spent a lot of time on this one - were those really resources worth spending?

But it's funny just how often this phenomenon comes up.


Edit: ninja'd by Viper.

The Piapot family said in a statement that allegations against Sainte-Marie are "hurtful, ignorant, colonial — and racist." They said the singer was adopted in the traditional way.

"We claim her as a member of our family and all of our family members are from the Piapot First Nation. To us, that holds far more weight than any paper documentation or colonial record keeping ever could," the family said.

The First Nations claim her as First Nation. That's good enough for me.

I recommend reading this report, and you might change your view about accepting the fraudulent claim of Indigenous identity only on the basis that they have been accepted by one Indigenous community. There are significant harms to all Indigenous communities when the fraud occurs.

I do not know the specifics of this particular case and make no comment about it.  But I am pushing back against your good enough for me stance.

https://indigenous.usask.ca/documents/deybwewin--taapwaywin--tapwewin-verification/jean-teillet-report.pdf

[Sheilbh]

I mean, that's Donald Trump's superpower, isn't it?  What you see with Trump is what you get.  The man has no filter - you know exactly what he's thinking.  So even though he lies all the time (still waiting for Mexico to pay for the wall), he's very "authentic".

Yeah - especially in comparison with Clinton or basically all of the other primary candidates. By contrast I think Biden similarly may have many flaws, but I think Biden's political character is pretty close to himself.

I have to disagree with you here.  It certainly is possible for outsiders to break in.  Look at Jeremy Corbyn of course.  I mean yes he was in Parliament a long time but he certainly wasn't good at working with his parliamentary colleagues.

I think that's fair to a point. But as you say he's been an MP since 1983, before that he was very involved with the Labour left already - he was Tony Benn's campaign manager. He was an absolute fixture for a strand of the Labour Party. I was one of the few people in the country who knew who he was before 2015 because I'd go to the sort of protests that he'd speak at - and he'd speak at them all.

The Labour left always had a candidate for leadership elections who were then ceremoniously defeated - for example, Diane Abbott in 2010. Corbyn was selected basically because it was his turn. Abbott and McDonnell had already done their tilts. Until Corbyn, the soft left and Labour right viewed this as generally a good thing for "broadening the debate". He didn't have enough nominations from MPs to be nominated for leader on his own (as the Labour left was pretty weak). There was a campaign to nominate him to ensure a "broad debate" and lots of pretty centrist/Labour right MPs nominated him. Later several have said it was the biggest mistake in their career

It's true, especially with party members having  a say, that it's not necessarily the person who's "turn" it is or that you need to have worked up the front bench. But what I mean is it's incredibly difficult to imagine, say, a Trump, an Ike, a Bloomberg or even a Macron in a parliamentary system. On a purely practical level you need to be an MP already.

As for politicians you'd like to have a drink with - come on try and tell me Boris Johnson wouldn't be a hilarious drinking companion.  Didn't mean he was a great leader, but he had that kind of charm.

Famous for never buying a round/quietly disappearing before his

[Jacob]

I mean you did purposely make a dig at him, can't really act all indignant when your jab hits.

I didn't see or intend it as a jab, but fair enough - if that's how it comes across.

In any case, I'll respect Beeb's request take a break from interacting with him.