[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[HVC]

How does that fly? I get not having English services in the middle of nowhere with no Anglo presence, but in metropolitan areas? And can a native born person get English services, but not an immigrant. That seems worse.

In theory, a native born person can get services in other language than french. I have no idea how they expect any of that to actually work. AFAIK, they haven't said anything on the how.

"Show us ze papers, please", I guess.

[Oexmelin]

We've discussed the issue a lot over the years, and I doubt the general arguments have changed, regardless of the specificity of Bill 96.

I guess what I'd like to see, for once, from commentators, pundits, politicians, etc. is tackling these general questions:

a) Is the decline of French in Quebec a problem?
b) If it is a problem, is there something that can be done about it?

Too often, my general sense is that the answer to a) runs along the line of "not really" / "not important" / "not meaningful" - and when you get to b) my sense is that the answer is about "nothing at all / not much". And if you do get suggestions, you get vague, and vaguely insulting, petitions of principle about cultural attraction.

As long as people in Quebec feel, and not without cause, that this specific anxiety is not taken seriously, or is brushed aside, or that they are being condescended to, I don't think there's going to be much productive dialogue on this front between the Canadian "solitudes".

[Oexmelin]

At least, this time, the G&M has written a short editorial on the francophone communities outside Quebec, and their stuggles and declines - which usually elicits a lot less sympathy and attention from the general public.

[Jacob]

I understand Remy's problem. He was promise things & now these things are impossible to meet but he's over reacting. Take a couple french classes and when ask by a hospital worker if you're an immigrant say no.

Bill 96 has many dumb terms in it but I doubt that suddenly meetings will be held in french across many industries.

The video game industry has grown lazy and is being a cry baby. Adapt.

Like I said, anecdotally I'm seeing people leave Montreal explicitly in reaction to Bill 96. As I understand it, it's not about meetings having to be held in French (one of the anecdotes is someone who works on my team, an our meetings are in English), but about the larger social changes that makes existing in English more onerous and puts pressure to change in various ways.

What should the industry do to adapt and retain them? Similarly, how should the industry adapt to global talent with English as a second language being less attracted to work in Quebece because they're not ready to learn French - especially at the required speed?

This is especially true for folks with families - or interested in starting them - who have a preference for their kids being educated in English.

Like I said - I understand the desire to encourage and accelerate Francophonication as part of the nationalist project. It makes sense. Newcomers to Denmark are similarly encouraged with both sticks and carrots to learn Danish as fast as possible. But as far as I can tell it's having a real effect. And right now, the competition for talent is fierce and companies are going to be very sensitive people's needs.

Then again, maybe remote working will allow Quebec based companies to hire folks outside Quebec, operate their meetings in English, and for those people to avoid the perceived hardship of living in Quebec as an Anglophone.

[Grey Fox]

What should the industry do to adapt and retain them? Similarly, how should the industry adapt to global talent with English as a second language being less attracted to work in Quebec because they're not ready to learn French - especially at the required speed?

The speed requirement is really dumb & unrealistic. They could actually teach them french and take an active part.

If people and their families are not interested in atleast living a significant part of their life in french, they should go live somewhere else.

[Barrister]

We've discussed the issue a lot over the years, and I doubt the general arguments have changed, regardless of the specificity of Bill 96.

I guess what I'd like to see, for once, from commentators, pundits, politicians, etc. is tackling these general questions:

a) Is the decline of French in Quebec a problem?
b) If it is a problem, is there something that can be done about it?

Too often, my general sense is that the answer to a) runs along the line of "not really" / "not important" / "not meaningful" - and when you get to b) my sense is that the answer is about "nothing at all / not much". And if you do get suggestions, you get vague, and vaguely insulting, petitions of principle about cultural attraction.

As long as people in Quebec feel, and not without cause, that this specific anxiety is not taken seriously, or is brushed aside, or that they are being condescended to, I don't think there's going to be much productive dialogue on this front between the Canadian "solitudes".

This sort of begs the question though - is the french language in decline in Quebec?

My understanding is that the answer is it's complicated.  Again my understanding was that the % of people whose first language is French is declining (though still a strong majority), but that the % of people who can speak French is increasing - and that this is largely driven by immigration.

As I said that was my understanding, but I can't easily google confirmation (or rejection) of this.  But if true I don't know if that counts as the French language being in decline.

Oex if you or others have better information I'd be happy to look at it.

[Josquius]

I guess they're upset at the number of people passing the needed French tests to get the favourable easier quebecois immigration but who actually far prefer English?
I know several people who fit this profile and have moved to Canada. 

[Zoupa]

<snip>
Francophonication

Just wanted to comment:

1- that's probably not a word
2- wanting folks to speak your national language is hardly a "nationalist" project.

[Barrister]

2- wanting folks to speak your national language is hardly a "nationalist" project.

Sure it is.  But that doesn't make it a bad thing.

[crazy canuck]

2- wanting folks to speak your national language is hardly a "nationalist" project.

Sure it is.  But that doesn't make it a bad thing.

<snip>
Francophonication

Just wanted to comment:

1- that's probably not a word
2- wanting folks to speak your national language is hardly a "nationalist" project.

Wanting folks to speak one of the official languages to the enforced exclusion of the other seems to have a tinge of nationalist project to it.

[Sheilbh]

I'm more with BB - it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with wanting to protect a national culture in the face of huge forces of cultural hegemony from the US, Anglo Canada and English globally - especially if you're the main Francophone area on the continent. I'd probably lean the other way that it's actually essential.

[Jacob]

We've discussed the issue a lot over the years, and I doubt the general arguments have changed, regardless of the specificity of Bill 96.

I guess what I'd like to see, for once, from commentators, pundits, politicians, etc. is tackling these general questions: 

a) Is the decline of French in Quebec a problem?

That is for the people of Quebec to decide. It seems the answer is yes.

b) If it is a problem, is there something that can be done about it?

That's a good question. Bill 96 is one such attempt, and it may make a difference. It does have a cost/ impact though.

Too often, my general sense is that the answer to a) runs along the line of "not really" / "not important" / "not meaningful" - and when you get to b) my sense is that the answer is about "nothing at all / not much". And if you do get suggestions, you get vague, and vaguely insulting, petitions of principle about cultural attraction.

That's fair enough.

For what it's worth, I'll accept that the Quebec perception that French is in decline is real, valid, and worthy of action.

But I'm still interested in analyzing the impact of these actions.

As long as people in Quebec feel, and not without cause, that this specific anxiety is not taken seriously, or is brushed aside, or that they are being condescended to, I don't think there's going to be much productive dialogue on this front between the Canadian "solitudes".

For my part I'm doing my best to take it seriously and not brush it aside.

In this particular case I did approach it from the perspetive of my industry rather than the perspective of Quebec. In general I agree with the analysis the article offers as it matches my anecdotal observations.

That doesn't mean I think Quebec doesn't have the right to enact the bill, or is doing so without cause. And it is possible that the videogame industry in Quebec will fillow Grey Fox's advice and get over it. But in the immediate term, I think the impact is real in an industry that is English-based on a global level, highly mobile, and currently in a pretty competitive environment for hiring.

[Grey Fox]

In BC news, John Horgan will step down this fall.

Feels like quite the earthquake to me. Is it?

[Jacob]

The speed requirement is really dumb & unrealistic. They could actually teach them french and take an active part.

If people and their families are not interested in atleast living a significant part of their life in french, they should go live somewhere else.

That's fair enough.

I think - industry specific - people who are willing to move for jobs often do so with the idea that they might just be there for one, two, or maybe five years before moving somewhere else. Sure, some folks end up putting down roots and staying, but the possibility of mobility is always there for a variety of reasons.

Getting your family fully enmeshed in Francophone society and committing to that is a bigger commitment than taking a job in any other city when your line of work is - globally speaking - English based.

Given the imperative to protect and strengthen Quebec culture and the French language in Quebec, it's fair enough decision for Quebec to make that it will forego some of those people for whom that makes a difference, but IMO it's a real thing.

[Jacob]

Just wanted to comment:

1- that's probably not a word

It is now. I just coined it. We'll see if it has legs...

2- wanting folks to speak your national language is hardly a "nationalist" project.

I think it is - especially in the context of Quebec where as I understand it being a nationalist is pretty common and influential political position. I mean, it is an effort to protect and strengthen the national language of the Quebec nation isn't it? But I'm fine with calling it something else if you prefer.