[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

So yeah, it is a new thing.

It's a new thing that escalating language laws may be causing a new wave of departures, but not a new thing in that there hasn't been similar scenarios in the past where previous language laws has creating roadblocks (or exoduses).

Yeah I suppose that's true too

[Jacob]

I'm more with BB - it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with wanting to protect a national culture in the face of huge forces of cultural hegemony from the US, Anglo Canada and English globally - especially if you're the main Francophone area on the continent. I'd probably lean the other way that it's actually essential.

I agree. I can't really get up in arms about it. But if I were operating a studio in Quebec, it would definitely go down in the column of additional challenges.

[Jacob]

In BC news, John Horgan will step down this fall.

Feels like quite the earthquake to me. Is it?

Not massively so. He's battled cancer for a while and it's been known locally (if you follow these things) that he wasn't intending to run for the next election. Current speculation I've heard is that Adrian Dix may step up to replace him as leader.

It's nice to see that the NDP is taking a reasonable stab it an orderly transition (crossing fingers). In the larger context of Canadian politics it's maybe surprising it isn't a shit fight, but I guess there's still time

... though for this iteration of the BC NDP, it seems in character.

[crazy canuck]

In BC news, John Horgan will step down this fall.

Feels like quite the earthquake to me. Is it?

Not massively so. He's battled cancer for a while and it's been known locally (if you follow these things) that he wasn't intending to run for the next election. Current speculation I've heard is that Adrian Dix may step up to replace him as leader.

It's nice to see that the NDP is taking a reasonable stab it an orderly transition (crossing fingers). In the larger context of Canadian politics it's maybe surprising it isn't a shit fight, but I guess there's still time

... though for this iteration of the BC NDP, it seems in character.

You are correct that it is not a surprise, given his cancer.

But I think it is a bit of an earthquake in our politics. He has been a very competent Premier - perhaps the best we have had in this province. He has run a stable, scandal free government.  And where they have faced controversy - think Site C and the more recent BC Museum renovation issue - he showed superb political skills.  But for his health issues he would likely have had much longer run of election victories.   

It will be interesting to see who wants the top job now.  Whoever it is will have a much easier job of it if they simply follow the template Horgan created.  But I am not sure who is going to have his mix of folksy but principled politics.

Perhaps the current Minister of Health will give it another go. The AG also has a high profile and he might want to go for the top job as well.

[Oexmelin]

For my part I'm doing my best to take it seriously and not brush it aside.

To be clear, I wasn't targetting anyone here (I don't think).

That doesn't mean I think Quebec doesn't have the right to enact the bill, or is doing so without cause. And it is possible that the videogame industry in Quebec will fillow Grey Fox's advice and get over it. But in the immediate term, I think the impact is real in an industry that is English-based on a global level, highly mobile, and currently in a pretty competitive environment for hiring.

That's quite possible, though the videogame industry tends to be quite big, and the new law simply extends to businesses having between 25 to 49 employees provisions that already were in place (and, it should be said, we already ignored...) for businesses over 50 employees. Presumably, Ubisoft, or EA, or Square Enix had already fulfilled those requirements.

What that means, in effect, is that the bulk of the daily operations of said business is conducted in French for internal matters, and that no blanket requirements are in place to have all hirings be bilingual, for instance, for the convenience of a few. The main target of those measures is HR - not people who, for instance, have to interact on a daily basis with a main office in the USA, or India.   

It's an administrative hurdle, to be sure. But I can't really shake the suspicion that it draws a lot more ire from the press than the many other hurdles and the countless other compliance forms that businesses have to submit themselves to. 

[viper37]

Bill 96 in Quebec is having an impact on its videogame industry: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bill-96-quebec-video-game-industry-1.6498773

Basically, the article argues that the increased focus on French in the workplace and public life is driving out anglophones and making it hard to hire in an already highly competitive recruiting environment.
 
Anecdotally this seems right on. I've got one guy who's working remotely from Montreal and he's leaving the province as a direct result of Bill 96.

Lots of American Southerners left the Civil War and only came back after the Reconstruction was over and Jim Crow laws came into effect.  Maybe we should have something like that in Quebec to convince these anglos to come back?

From a culture perspective I understand the position that French should be primary and that people should adapt to the language of the province. But on the flipside, businesses that draw from a global, English-language hiring market are going to struggle.

They always say French hurts businesses.  It's nothing new.  Does Spanish hurts businesses? Swedish? Finnish?

I guess from the perspective of the Nationalist project it's an acceptable price to pay.

See it another way.  If you force equality through laws, on anything, race, gender, language, there are going to be disgruntled people who can't take it and who are going to leave and change industry, state or country.  Some people can't adapt to technological changes, some can't adapt to societal changes.

Meh.

I'm curious how unique this to the videogame industry, and to what degree it impacts other sectors in Quebec.

[/quote]
The video game industry hasn't been doing so well lately in Quebec.  And in general, too, with lots of scandals appearing, mostly about sexual harassment; even if not in Quebec, they reflect badly on everyone in the industry.

Does making French the language of workplace hurts them?  Probably.  Does anti-harassment laws hurts them?  Most assuredly.  Should we repeal them too?  I'm sure they'll have an easier time attracting talent without that 'damocles' sword of "never knowing when a woman is going to accuse you of sexual harassment" (heard so many times on different industries as they had a reckoning with their own sexual harassment culture too).  How often did I hear in the last decade that talented senior executives in X industry did not want to coach females anymore because of this?  What do you think of this?  I guess we're of the same opinion.  Sorry if I presuppose anything, bad habits die hard & all.

So French is the official language. French is in decline.  Immigrants tends to switch to english, or leave for Toronto. Bigger city, bigger communities, bigger opportunities.  Better chances of having a cousin who can get you a gig in some place.

The bill is too heavy handed on coercition for my tastes.  The bill does not address many core issues with French culture. Well, mainly one: we produce shit that does not interest most young people.  I like Game of Thrones.  I like The Boys.  I liked Banshee.  There's nothing on Quebec tv that could rival with this, even without special effects, just by the writing.  It's tv made to please women whose ideas of thrill is probably to read 50 Shades of Grey standing by the washing machine.  Our movies are bland.  Even mafia movies have lower kill count than your average american comedy.   We do excellent comedies, but they are getting rarer and rarer.

Same with music.  Nothing that goes mainstream is even palatable, only the undergound scene is decent, and it's become a viscious circle: if a decent metal singer makes it to   a mainstream tv show (our own version of The Voice) it means it's shit regardless of his talent because its mainstream...

And these critics aren't coming only from me, insiders are speaking too, the same thing I've been saying for years.  We've removed all edges from everything to the point its boring.

So people anglicize themselves by watching Netflix and Amazon shows.  And the government and the industry is left begging for them to encourage local production.

It is distateful.

Bill 96 isn't gonna change any of that.

But until we have a cultural adjustment, it's probably the only thing we can do to avoid extinction.

[viper37]

But I can't really shake the suspicion that it draws a lot more ire from the press than the many other hurdles and the countless other compliance forms that businesses have to submit themselves to. 

You think?

[Jacob]

To be clear, I wasn't targetting anyone here (I don't think).

That's quite possible, though the videogame industry tends to be quite big, and the new law simply extends to businesses having between 25 to 49 employees provisions that already were in place (and, it should be said, we already ignored...) for businesses over 50 employees. Presumably, Ubisoft, or EA, or Square Enix had already fulfilled those requirements.

What that means, in effect, is that the bulk of the daily operations of said business is conducted in French for internal matters, and that no blanket requirements are in place to have all hirings be bilingual, for instance, for the convenience of a few. The main target of those measures is HR - not people who, for instance, have to interact on a daily basis with a main office in the USA, or India. 

It's an administrative hurdle, to be sure. But I can't really shake the suspicion that it draws a lot more ire from the press than the many other hurdles and the countless other compliance forms that businesses have to submit themselves to.

I don't think it's the restrictions on conduct in the workplace that's at issue - my impression is that in practice they are manageable (circumvented? I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised).

My anecdotes indicate that it's the access to services and education that's being perceived as having ratched up a level and pushing folks over the line.

Maybe it's just a blip, there'll be a brief and limited exodus with new incomers finding a way to exist in the new system whether by means of accelerated integration into the Francophone community (the intention) or circumvention. I guess we'll see.

[viper37]

It's not a new thing. In the 70s with the increase in language laws (and separatism) financial institutions started leaving Quebec. A specialized field that works internationally in English. 

Bill 22, the Official Language Act, sponsored by the Québec Liberal government of Robert Bourassa and passed by the legislature July 1974. It made French the language of civic administration and services, and of the workplace. Only children who could demonstrate sufficient knowledge of another language of instruction would be exempted from receiving their instruction in French.


That is what enraged English Quebecers so much that they refused to vote for the QLP at the next election, paving the way for the Parti Québécois and the referendum on sovereignty.

Then came bill 101.

And after the Supreme Court, came bill 178, leading to the Equality Party.  Some kind of Bloc Québécois for Montreal's West Island.  Back then, what anglos call ethnic nationalism was totally fine.

In December 1988 the Liberal government of Québec introduced Bill 178, an Act to amend Bill 101, Charte de la langue française. This followed the Supreme Court ruling earlier that year which declared void Bill 101's provisions for unilingual public commercial signs and advertising and for acceptance of trade names in French only. The revised version of section 58 in the Charte made it clear that "public signs and posters and commercial advertising, outside or intended for the public outside, shall be solely in French." This applied also inside commercial centres and inside any public means of transport, among other places. Concerning public signs and posters and commercial advertising inside establishments, they might "be both in French and in another language, provided they are intended only for the public inside the establishments and that French is markedly predominant." Nevertheless, section 59 explicitly exempted "advertising carried in news media that publish in a language other than French, or to messages of a religious, political, ideological or humanitarian nature if not for a profit motive."

[viper37]

My anecdotes indicate that it's the access to services and education that's being perceived as having ratched up a level and pushing folks over the line.

Services in education are unchanged.  Services for the existing anglo minority is unchanged in anything.  They are still much more existant than whatever you average French Canadian outside of Quebec receives and there's no one protesting against bilinguism in hospitals, unlike in Cornwall.

What has changed, theoritically, are other services provided by the government. 
Hospital care should be left mostly unchanged: French is favored, but English or an interpreter will be used. 
Justice is retarded as the government wants to reduce the number of bilingual judges in Quebec (technically, it wants to reduce number of position where bilinguism is officially required; a person may still be bilingual, like I am at my job and can answer English speaking clients (so far, 2 in a year... ) even though it's not a job requirement.
Government offices, like Société des Alcools, Société du Canabis, etc, may not have to answer customers in english.
Revenu Québec or other departments, should, theoritically, communicate with newcomers in English or in French for the first 6 months after their arrival and then only in French.  I say it's unenforceable and way too coercitive.

Nothing has changed for First Nations either, but it's clear Quebec wants the next generations to use French as their primary or second language beside their native own language (always depend on the state of the language, some are extinct or quasi-extinct).

Maybe it's just a blip, there'll be a brief and limited exodus with new incomers finding a way to exist in the new system whether by means of accelerated integration into the Francophone community (the intention) or circumvention. I guess we'll see.

[/quote]
Disinformation campaing by medias does not help.  But some aspects seem to be tailor made for an electoral campaign, to look tough on the English invader and their woke allies.

[Jacob]

They always say French hurts businesses.  It's nothing new.  Does Spanish hurts businesses? Swedish? Finnish?

My understanding is that international video game companies in Sweden and Finland and most other countries (I'd expect Spain too, but don't know) conduct their business in English... or, at least, that if you come in with English you'll be able to work.

Certainly, when I've spoken with people who worked abroad in various capacities in this industry - or when I've discussed potential opportunities - I've always understood English to be the lingua franca (as it were).

Meh.

You say "meh", but then you say:

But until we have a cultural adjustment, it's probably the only thing we can do to avoid extinction.

Which is what I was getting at. As a decision it makes sense given Quebec's priorities. That's fine as far as I'm concerned, I'm just looking to get a handle on the impact.

Does making French the language of workplace hurts them?

I don't think it's the workplace langugage that's the main issue. Like I said, one of the people I know who's leaving is working for my BC based employer, so that's not an issue at all. It's the services and education thing that pushed this particular person over the edge.

Probably.  Does anti-harassment laws hurts them?  Most assuredly.  Should we repeal them too?  I'm sure they'll have an easier time attracting talent without that 'damocles' sword of "never knowing when a woman is going to accuse you of sexual harassment" (heard so many times on different industries as they had a reckoning with their own sexual harassment culture too).  How often did I hear in the last decade that talented senior executives in X industry did not want to coach females anymore because of this?  What do you think of this?  I guess we're of the same opinion.  Sorry if I presuppose anything, bad habits die hard & all.

I think providing a safe inclusive supportive workplace free from harassment and discrimination is not only an ethical imperative, but also improves hiring, retention, and productivity by a significant margin.

So French is the official language. French is in decline.  Immigrants tends to switch to english, or leave for Toronto. Bigger city, bigger communities, bigger opportunities.  Better chances of having a cousin who can get you a gig in some place.

The bill is too heavy handed on coercition for my tastes.  The bill does not address many core issues with French culture. Well, mainly one: we produce shit that does not interest most young people.  I like Game of Thrones.  I like The Boys.  I liked Banshee.  There's nothing on Quebec tv that could rival with this, even without special effects, just by the writing.  It's tv made to please women whose ideas of thrill is probably to read 50 Shades of Grey standing by the washing machine.  Our movies are bland.  Even mafia movies have lower kill count than your average american comedy.  We do excellent comedies, but they are getting rarer and rarer.

Same with music.  Nothing that goes mainstream is even palatable, only the undergound scene is decent, and it's become a viscious circle: if a decent metal singer makes it to  a mainstream tv show (our own version of The Voice) it means it's shit regardless of his talent because its mainstream...

And these critics aren't coming only from me, insiders are speaking too, the same thing I've been saying for years.  We've removed all edges from everything to the point its boring.

So people anglicize themselves by watching Netflix and Amazon shows.  And the government and the industry is left begging for them to encourage local production.

It is distateful.

Bill 96 isn't gonna change any of that.

Yeah it's tough. I'm sympathetic to the point of view, I think it's a legitimate set of worries, and I don't have any kind of useful advice to offer either.

[viper37]

I'm more with BB - it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with wanting to protect a national culture in the face of huge forces of cultural hegemony from the US, Anglo Canada and English globally - especially if you're the main Francophone area on the continent. I'd probably lean the other way that it's actually essential.

I agree. I can't really get up in arms about it. But if I were operating a studio in Quebec, it would definitely go down in the column of additional challenges.

They will ask for more subsidies to face the difficult times ahead.  I think this is what this whining will lead to.  There's a lot of talking about video game studios lately and how they somehow big plans.

[Jacob]

I'm curious, if any of you know: what counts as a newcomer in the context of Bill 96 (and others)?

Obviously someone who immigrates directly to Quebec from somewhere else is a newcomer. Does it apply to anyone else?

What about someone who immmigrates to Toronto then moves to Quebec immediately, are they a newcomer? What if they move to Quebec after 6 months? Or after 10 years?

Both my wife and I are immigrants, though we've been in Canada for years but come from non-English speaking countries. Would we be considered newcomers for the purpose of Bill 96?

[Jacob]

They will ask for more subsidies to face the difficult times ahead.  I think this is what this whining will lead to.  There's a lot of talking about video game studios lately and how they somehow big plans.

Makes sense. Access to money can make a business accept coping with various other hurdles.

Whether it's a good move for Quebec or not is not something I have an opinion on.

[viper37]

I'm curious, if any of you know: what counts as a newcomer in the context of Bill 96 (and others)?

Obviously someone who immigrates directly to Quebec from somewhere else is a newcomer. Does it apply to anyone else?

What about someone who immmigrates to Toronto then moves to Quebec immediately, are they a newcomer? What if they move to Quebec after 6 months? Or after 10 years?

Both my wife and I are immigrants, though we've been in Canada for years but come from non-English speaking countries. Would we be considered newcomers for the purpose of Bill 96?

Newcomer = immigrant to Canada.

I do not know if the timer would be reset for a temporary worker who gets back home after a summer of work and comes back the next season.