The Great Union-Busting Thread

[grumbler]

I didn't want to respond to grumbles who was obviously just trolling me, but that's my take.

Of curse you don't want to respond to me.  You celebrate the extinction of people who want exactly what you have - a strong union and a defined-benefit pension.

There's nothing inherently silly about a defined benefit plan.  Heck an individual can go out and purchase one themselves - it's called an annuity.

Annuities and defined-benefit pensions are apples and road apples.  Defined-benefit pensions are inherently silly in any market-based system of employment, and for any government pension scheme.

[Barrister]

I didn't want to respond to grumbles who was obviously just trolling me, but that's my take.

Of curse you don't want to respond to me.  You celebrate the extinction of people who want exactly what you have - a strong union and a defined-benefit pension.

That's right baby - I want to exterminate them.  They don't call me "Worse than Hitler" for nothing.

[DGuller]

What is inherently wrong with defined-benefit plans is their lack of portability, since the chances any two plans will have the same defined benefit are small, and the mechanisms for transferring benefits from company A to company B are complex even where they exist.

Defined-benefit pensions are dinosaurs.  Best to put the beasties down, even if socialists eligible for them really want them.

In theory, this does not have to be a problem.  The pension benefits you're entitled to have a cash value.  If you change jobs, you can be given an annuity for the vested value of your pension.

[Valmy]

That's right baby - I want to exterminate them.  They don't call me "Worse than Ed Anger" for nothing.

Fixed

[Barrister]

There is nothing inherently wrong with defined-benefit pensions.  In fact, they make a whole lot more sense than defined-contribution plans, from the standpoint of providing insurance against poverty in the old age.  The problem with them is that they're abused and gamed in various ways with tricks that should be illegal.

What is inherently wrong with defined-benefit plans is their lack of portability, since the chances any two plans will have the same defined benefit are small, and the mechanisms for transferring benefits from company A to company B are complex even where they exist.

I'm going to try responding to arguments that you choose to present, and will ignore and/or ridicule the hyperbole.

Portability can be an issue, but hardly an insurmountable one.  I was able to transfer my pensionable service from Alberta to the Feds, and I double checked I will be able to transfer it all back.

Even if that was not an optin (and it frequently is not) any pension plan has a cash value, and many pension plans do allow you to purchase pensionable time.  You can usually cash out the old pension and use that money to buy into the new pension plan.

That of course assumes rationale, well funded pension plans, which may not always be a safe assumption.

[Josephus]

I've read that the number of Americans who are unionized is incredibly low. i can't remember the number but wasn't it in the teens or something? Maybe 30 per cent, don't remember.  And of those uniionized workers, the majority belong to civil service unions; which means that busting those unions, in effect, will end the unions in America.

Thank God it's not 30%.  It's 7.2% for private sector employees and 12.4% for public employees according to wikipedia.

7 per cent of private employees in America are unionized. That's seriously disturbing.

[Barrister]

I've read that the number of Americans who are unionized is incredibly low. i can't remember the number but wasn't it in the teens or something? Maybe 30 per cent, don't remember.  And of those uniionized workers, the majority belong to civil service unions; which means that busting those unions, in effect, will end the unions in America.

Thank God it's not 30%.  It's 7.2% for private sector employees and 12.4% for public employees according to wikipedia.

7 per cent of private employees in America are unionized. That's seriously disturbing.

I agree, but probably for different reasons than you do.

[derspiess]

7 per cent of private employees in America are unionized. That's seriously disturbing.

Okay, I gotta hear this.  Why?

[Valmy]

7 per cent of private employees in America are unionized. That's seriously disturbing.

But not surprising.  The decline of union labor has been going on for awhile.

Why is it so disturbing?

I mean I do not have any problem with unions per se but they have not been that effective at helping workers for awhile now.  The economic climate is not very union friendly.

[Josephus]

If I read this chart right, and I'm not saying I do, than 25 per cent of "civilian" employees in Canada belong to unions.

http://www.rhdcc-hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/lp/wid/union_membership.shtml

Interestingly, though not surprisingly, the largest number of unionized workers belong to the Canadian Union of Public Employees

[crazy canuck]

Not sure what a civilian is for the purposes of that chart.

[Josephus]

Not sure what a civilian is for the purposes of that chart.

I assume it means non public worker? I don't know to be honest.

[Habbaku]

7 per cent of private employees in America are unionized. That's seriously disturbing.

[CountDeMoney]

What Seedy said.  AFAICT there is no "corporate tax cut," not in the sense that most people would use the term, to denote a decrease in the marginal tax rate on corporate profits.  There's a one time credit for new employees hired, up to a whopping $332.

You've been bamboozled by the advocacy media son.

So Seedy links one article & you assume that's conclusive?  Here's another.  Though it expires after a couple years & is targeted toward companies that relocate to Wisconsin, it's still a tax cut: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-31/wis-gov-inks-tax-cut-bill-for-businesses-into-law.html

Isn't it a tax break rather than a tax cut? With a price tag of $1m it doesn't sound very impressive

Too funny; there's three separate tax actions in the article I posted, and everyone fixates on the smallest one.

You've been bamboozled by the Yi, son.

[Ed Anger]

That's right baby - I want to exterminate them.  They don't call me "Worse than Ed Anger" for nothing.

Fixed

Damn right.