TV/Movies Megathread

[The Brain]

The Americanization of everything is a bit annoying at times, but if you don't like a show then don't watch it. Problem solved.

[Oexmelin]

That's a sure way of creating a cohort of easily offended young adults who find prejudice everywhere.

Err. The students who get offended in these classes are the bunch of racists who take offense at the mere suggestion that there were people of color in medieval Europe.

The fact that Ciri has been designed as white should not preclude the fact that she can be reinvented as whatever color one wants. Because it's a bloody fantasy world. Jesus has been thoroughly reinvented for centuries as lily-white, and few people apparently object... At this point, many characters exist as collections of traits that ought to go well beyond skin color. There is little reason why Captain America, or Batman, or Hamlet, are white, except the fact that they were born of a time - no longer ours - when there were little to no representations of heroic people of color, and the fact that they have been carried through time by the sheer wealth of explicitly racist states and empires. James Bond mat very well be a black man soon, and that will be awesome.

So, yes, I will happily denounce the Americanization of shows when they make every story conform to the *tropes* that they recognize, or make every show about themselves. The skin color of a character does not change the cultural content of show itself. To be offended by having a black person in what would essentially remain a heavily Slavic-inspired fantasy world, is to acknowledge that black people cannot truly be Slavic, and that their skin color renders the whole thing more unbelievable that a white dude with cat eyes, shape-shifting dragons, and magic potions. I find that selective offense disturbing.

As for historical drama, it is indeed more complicated. To be offended by an Asian Louis XIV is to assume it would actually require *more* suspension of disbelief, than the fact that I can plainly recognize Gerard Depardieu under a wig. If I can accept one as serious, and the other as ridiculous, I think it warrants some introspection. However, a show in which issues of race would have a role to play may want to conform more to the historical situation. In the case of Frontier, this was a precisely a world where issues of Indigeneity played a crucial role in how the characters would be treated.

[Syt]

I will say that I do think that it is a bit ridiculous. Black Panther showed that there is a lot of interest in African stories. Why not make a show about some kind of African mythology if you really want to cast black actors? I am sure we would rather see that than another godawful video game adaptation anyway.

The series will adapt the original books, supposedly, not the games.

[Oexmelin]

I will say that I do think that it is a bit ridiculous. Black Panther showed that there is a lot of interest in African stories. Why not make a show about some kind of African mythology if you really want to cast black actors? I am sure we would rather see that than another godawful video game adaptation anyway.

Yes, but as even the Witcher post makes clear, fantasy (and sci-fi) has been dominated for so long by stories of Northern Europe that many of the tropes that fans enjoy have come to be intimately associated with this sort of setting. To shift that setting into Africans (and then, which ones?) mythologies would entail opening entirely new tropes and genres that would necessarily be way riskier for that type of show. Black Panther built more on our contemporary fascination for technology, and the well-established patterns of superhero movies. They went for (mostly East) African designs for the material culture of Wakanda, and traditionally, that is always what is easier to accept.

[HVC]

Anansi is west African (and I think Caribbean as well?) and has a great number of stories. and as a trickster god he's fun too. So there are other mythos out there to explore.

What I think you're missing is that many characters; be they sci-fi, comics, or fantasy have decades of history attached to them. People don't like drastic change. and skin colour is a drastic change. there's a continuation from one blond dude to another blond dude. the transition is less stark and "it holds to the source material" (to butcher a common phrase). Spiderman, for example, has been around since the 60's. that's decades of stories and a fan base. Making him black, just because (or worse, to pander) serves no purpose and of course will make the fans angry. Now, making a new character who is black but with a  similar power set, like Miles Morales, and people are no longer mad (except maybe a subset of people who are actually racist and nothing will change there reaction). That character is black and has a large fan base too (often overlapping with fans of the brown haired Caucasian Peter Parker).

Kind of rambled there, but my point is disregarding peoples concerns because the source material is not based on historical people or events downplays the cultural significance of certain characters.

That being said I don't personally care, but I can see why it would bother people. You're messing with something they love.

[Barrister]

I'm not familiar with the books.  Nor, truth be told, the games.

I'm not a huge fan of "cultural appropriation" claims.  Netflix bought the rights, they can cast whomever they want.  But yeah, as a viewer, you can have the right to dislike those casting choices.

I suppose it comes down to just how "slavic" the books really are.  For example, King Arthur is a fictional, even mythic character.  He never existed.  But I think I would be annoyed at a King Arthur of colour (unless they were specifically do something odd with it - set it in Africa or something) - just because it would make no sense to have the King of the Britons be black (historically, yeah I know Meghan Markle exists).  I was equally offended when Kevin Costner played Robin Hood with an American accent too.

Is Witcher that intrinsically slavic that such a casting choice would just feel wrong to me as the viewer?  I dunno.  But I kind of doubt it.

[celedhring]

The problem with making Ciri a PoC is that she's the daughter of the book's equivalent of Kaiser Wilhelm. Her country of origin is an allegory of the Empire of Germany, as seen by a Polish writer. Can't see the metaphor working as well with black nilfgaardians

EDIT: Her mother is from Cintra, though, so I guess they could make Cintrians black an still retain the German allegory for Nilfgaard.

[Oexmelin]

Making him black, just because (or worse, to pander) serves no purpose and of course will make the fans angry. Now, making a new character who is black but with a  similar power set, like Miles

I understand that fans have strong ideas and opinions about how a character ought to look like. But I disagree that making Spiderman black serves no purpose. It does serve a political, and a moral one. We may disagree as to whether it ought to or not, but it enlarges the scope of what heroism looks like, with a character that already has decades of goodwill, and recognition already built. It contributes to the widening of what "mainstream" ought to look like. Too often, mainstream is by default white, and then you have a weaker, more marginal, more niche hero targeted at specific communities.

[Malthus]

As usual, this sort of thing depends heavily on what story is being told.

For example: the adaptation of King's Dark Tower novels with a Black actor.

This would have been a very bad idea - if the movie stuck anywhere close to the books - because, though a fantasy, the fact of Roland being visibly white-skinned (in fact, a medieval deliberate expy of spaghetti western gunslingers like Clint Eastwood) was an actual plot point in the series: he meets, and eventually befriends, a major character who is a Black woman, and one of whose personalities initially takes a strong exception to Roland because he is White (in fact, attempts to kill him ...).

This leads to all sorts of in-book implications about race, power, gender, movie tropes, etc., which the series is rich in (for better or worse). Changing his skin colour changes the story fundamentally.

As it happened, the movie had little to do with the books, and bombed badly for many reasons, so this level of detail hardly mattered: in fact, according to the reviews, the best part of an otherwise forgettable movie was casting the Black lead! 

[Tonitrus]

Starbuck is a man.

[Barrister]

Making him black, just because (or worse, to pander) serves no purpose and of course will make the fans angry. Now, making a new character who is black but with a  similar power set, like Miles

I understand that fans have strong ideas and opinions about how a character ought to look like. But I disagree that making Spiderman black serves no purpose. It does serve a political, and a moral one. We may disagree as to whether it ought to or not, but it enlarges the scope of what heroism looks like, with a character that already has decades of goodwill, and recognition already built. It contributes to the widening of what "mainstream" ought to look like. Too often, mainstream is by default white, and then you have a weaker, more marginal, more niche hero targeted at specific communities.

Comic book characters have been re-booted and re-vamped so many times over the years it's hard to argue with a straight face that there is only one way to portray such a character.

Heck, I remember when Nick Fury was a white guy, but Samuel Jackson so embodies the role now you can't imagine him as anything but black.

[Valmy]

I will say that I do think that it is a bit ridiculous. Black Panther showed that there is a lot of interest in African stories. Why not make a show about some kind of African mythology if you really want to cast black actors? I am sure we would rather see that than another godawful video game adaptation anyway.

Yes, but as even the Witcher post makes clear, fantasy (and sci-fi) has been dominated for so long by stories of Northern Europe that many of the tropes that fans enjoy have come to be intimately associated with this sort of setting. To shift that setting into Africans (and then, which ones?) mythologies would entail opening entirely new tropes and genres that would necessarily be way riskier for that type of show. Black Panther built more on our contemporary fascination for technology, and the well-established patterns of superhero movies. They went for (mostly East) African designs for the material culture of Wakanda, and traditionally, that is always what is easier to accept.

You really want me to recommend an African ethnicity? Alright: Yoruba. They already have lots of influence on this hemisphere so it wouldn't be that super duper out of everybody's comfort zone.

As for the rest of it...I don't see how just taking black actors to play Northern European characters is doing much to shift this long domination. (but then these genres have not been around THAT loong...)

I mean people have passionately embraced Japanese takes on both of those things. But I guess I cannot really do much for TV and Movie execs not wanting to do anything risky. I guess just making some Europeans black and changing nothing else will have to do.

[Sophie Scholl]

Two quick things:  The changing of characters' (Norse gods at that) races in the Thor franchise was odd to me, but I learned to move on fairly quickly.  Second, Viper's arguments are null because he actually thinks Frontier is excellent.  Bleh.  I wanted to like that show.  I really did, but... it is trash.

[Malthus]

Two quick things:  The changing of characters' (Norse gods at that) races in the Thor franchise was odd to me, but I learned to move on fairly quickly.  Second, Viper's arguments are null because he actually thinks Frontier is excellent.  Bleh.  I wanted to like that show.  I really did, but... it is trash.

Aren't the "Norse Gods" in the Thor franchise actually some sort of aliens ... ? 

[Sophie Scholl]

Two quick things:  The changing of characters' (Norse gods at that) races in the Thor franchise was odd to me, but I learned to move on fairly quickly.  Second, Viper's arguments are null because he actually thinks Frontier is excellent.  Bleh.  I wanted to like that show.  I really did, but... it is trash.

Aren't the "Norse Gods" in the Thor franchise actually some sort of aliens ... ? 

I... think that's where they went with that?  I don't recall.  It's been a while since I've seen them.  Also, as per the source material I don't think Marvel had them as such when the movies were developed.