TV/Movies Megathread

[Ideologue]

The Grandmaster (2013)

You say.  You say.  You say.  One for the trouble two for the time, come on girls let's rock that

This is a biopic of Ip Man; who sounds like he should be the internet's greatest hero, but is actually the eponymous Grand Master (his zodiac sign is CAPRICORN!) of Wing Chun Kung Fu; and ultimately the teacher of Bruce Lee.  Wong Kar Wai directs; so it's filled with philosophical meditation and incomplete relationships.  There is a lot of fighting in it and even a revenge sub-plot; but it's not really an action film.  It's interesting, but I don't think it works.

Nope, hardly a bit.

I'd have watched the Gong Er movie that's happening in all those text blocks though.

[celedhring]

Huh, you'd think that there's a huge Latin audience for Spanish cinema, but I guess the dialectical differences strangle that baby in its cradle?  Or is it just that Mexico etc. can satisfy their own demands at home?

So, my follow-up questions regarding Spanish thrillers are:

1)Do other films and directors in the Spanish thriller set have the same level of formal ambition as Grand Piano or Open Windows?
2)Anything you'd recommend?  I found some potentially neat Spanish movies, like Cell 211 and King of the Hill, but the lists are dominated by horror in general (which I'm interested in, but it's a wholly distinct genre) and De Toro and Almodovar in specific (which results in me saying "no shit").  I do still need to follow up on Eugenio Mira's work.  I made it a point to check out some of Nacho Vigalondo's earlier stuff, namely Timecrimes, which is actually kind of the opposite of ambitious, unless doing your damnedest to recreate the feel of an extraordinarily cheap and innovation-free 1980s SF film counts as "ambition."  (For the record, I still kind of like Timecrimes.  Extraterrestrial also sounds fun--both of them do, in fact.)
3)Does Elijah Wood have a statue in Madrid yet?

Yeah, our films don't export well there; although Argie films are somewhat popular over here. Ungrateful bastards. Language isn't the only aspect of a culture, anyway.

1) Spanish genre film (thriller and horror) has usually always been quite formalist. The film I linked you too (Angustia), is very stylized for example. Amenábar used to be great with the camera, but doesn't do thrillers anymore. There's Rodrigo Cortés too (Buried), I personally don't like his films; but he's formally very ambitious. And there's of course Collet-Serra; he's made a name for himself with those Liam Neeson action flicks after doing shitty yank horror movies, but Orphan is pretty good. And JA Bayona (The Orphanage) and Jaume Balagueró (the REC flicks, which I hate, I prefer his previous work) are both great visual directors.
2)
My favorite Spanish thrillers are stuff like El Lobo, La Isla Mínima, Grupo 7, Las Horas del Día, En la ciudad sin límites, Caja 507... - but all those are more "realistic" gritty thrillers, and I'm not sure a foreigner will get them since they deal with a lot of Spanish issues and social commentary. For more stylized fare - and avoiding horror films - I'd go with Mientras Duermes (the best of the lot, imho), Tesis, Los Ojos de Julia, Intacto. Heck, Intacto could've been one of the greatest Spanish genre flicks of all time if they had bothered to write a third act. None of those is as crazy as Grand Piano, though - although you should really check out Angustia; it's a silly film but crazily stylized and over the top.
Cell 211 is allright but it's just a decent prison flick, it made a huge splash here because we don't make decent prison flicks. Extraterrestrial is awful; stay away.
3) No.

[Eddie Teach]

The Grandmaster (2013)

You say.  You say.  You say.  One for the trouble two for the time, come on girls let's rock that

This is a biopic of Ip Man; who sounds like he should be the internet's greatest hero, but is actually the eponymous Grand Master (his zodiac sign is CAPRICORN!) of Wing Chun Kung Fu; and ultimately the teacher of Bruce Lee.  Wong Kar Wai directs; so it's filled with philosophical meditation and incomplete relationships.  There is a lot of fighting in it and even a revenge sub-plot; but it's not really an action film.  It's interesting, but I don't think it works.  I find Wong Kar Wai to be a challenging director; so maybe I need to watch it again; but don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge.

Movie doesn't sound flashy enough.

[celedhring]

The Grandmaster (2013)

You say.  You say.  You say.  One for the trouble two for the time, come on girls let's rock that

This is a biopic of Ip Man; who sounds like he should be the internet's greatest hero, but is actually the eponymous Grand Master (his zodiac sign is CAPRICORN!) of Wing Chun Kung Fu; and ultimately the teacher of Bruce Lee.  Wong Kar Wai directs; so it's filled with philosophical meditation and incomplete relationships.  There is a lot of fighting in it and even a revenge sub-plot; but it's not really an action film.  It's interesting, but I don't think it works.  I find Wong Kar Wai to be a challenging director; so maybe I need to watch it again; but don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge.

Which cut did you watch, Sav? The yank one or the international one?

I found the film interesting; yes, it is frustrating, but it managed to stay in my brain not despite of it, but because of it. Wong Kar Wai always manages to make me care for all those unfulfilled relationships.

[Savonarola]

Which cut did you watch, Sav? The yank one or the international one?

The American one; the reviewers on Netflix say the international one is much better.  I'll keep my eyes out for that edition.

I found the film interesting; yes, it is frustrating, but it managed to stay in my brain not despite of it, but because of it. Wong Kar Wai always manages to make me care for all those unfulfilled relationships.

The first time I saw Chungking Express I didn't get it.  Only after watching Fallen Angels was I able to appreciate Chungking Express.  Like I said, I find his films challenging, so I'm willing to give this one another go.

[celedhring]

Which cut did you watch, Sav? The yank one or the international one?

The American one; the reviewers on Netflix say the international one is much better.  I'll keep my eyes out for that edition.

I found the film interesting; yes, it is frustrating, but it managed to stay in my brain not despite of it, but because of it. Wong Kar Wai always manages to make me care for all those unfulfilled relationships.

The first time I saw Chungking Express I didn't get it.  Only after watching Fallen Angels was I able to appreciate Chungking Express.  Like I said, I find his films challenging, so I'm willing to give this one another go.

Yeah, same happened to me with Chungking Express; I was 18 when it came out in Spain and with the Tarantino endorsement I expected a cool triad flick, so I absolutely hated it. I saw it years later and I loved it then.

Happy Together is another of his films that took me a couple of viewings before fully embracing it.

[jimmy olsen]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ra1sBRLRFtc

[Ideologue]

Which cut did you watch, Sav? The yank one or the international one?

The American one; the reviewers on Netflix say the international one is much better.  I'll keep my eyes out for that edition.

I found the film interesting; yes, it is frustrating, but it managed to stay in my brain not despite of it, but because of it. Wong Kar Wai always manages to make me care for all those unfulfilled relationships.

The first time I saw Chungking Express I didn't get it.  Only after watching Fallen Angels was I able to appreciate Chungking Express.  Like I said, I find his films challenging, so I'm willing to give this one another go.

Yeah, same happened to me with Chungking Express; I was 18 when it came out in Spain and with the Tarantino endorsement I expected a cool triad flick, so I absolutely hated it. I saw it years later and I loved it then.

Happy Together is another of his films that took me a couple of viewings before fully embracing it.

I keep waiting for a Criterion release of 2046.  No dice.

[Ideologue]

Have you seen "Following" and if so, your thoughts?

It's really strong for essentially a student film, and I rather enjoyed it.  Its plot veers into a wholly preposterous [spoiler]Perfect Murder scheme[/spoiler] toward the end, but I like those.  Other than the essentially conventional framing sequence with the mysterious authority figure and the young man's confession, the non-linear storytelling technique doesn't exactly prove itself indispensable.  However, it does generate some tension, it is handled well through visual cues, and I was never lost in time.  The biggest problem with the film is that the reveal is just clumsily dumped in our laps like hot coffee, with the film suddenly veering out of the young man's point-of-view.  You can't do this in a novel, so why do people think you can do this in a movie?  No less a film than Vertigo does it, but that doesn't make it right.

Anyway, Following was fun and it was short--so, we are sure this is Christopher Nolan, right?  Just kidding, it's clearly a guy who elevates structural tricks above all else, even when the narrative is silly--and that's C. Nolan, all right.

B+

[celedhring]

Watched Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy again, since I was with some friends that wanted to see it. I still think it's way too cold; there's a big undercurrent of emotion in there (Smiley's friendship with the mole, the camaraderie with a lot of people that suddenly are now suspects, his rivalry with Karla, his problems with his wife, etc...) that just doesn't come across in the screen. The series made a much better job of conveying that.

[Admiral Yi]

The only thing really good about Tinker was the casting of Toby Esterhase.

[Sheilbh]

Watched Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy again, since I was with some friends that wanted to see it. I still think it's way too cold; there's a big undercurrent of emotion in there (Smiley's friendship with the mole, the camaraderie with a lot of people that suddenly are now suspects, his rivalry with Karla, his problems with his wife, etc...) that just doesn't come across in the screen. The series made a much better job of conveying that.

I disagree. It is cold but that's deliberate and I think it's a different emotion that it's conveying though.

For me the emotional pull of the film version is the sense that if you enter into this world you will be broken. You will not be allowed or able to carry on a normal life or have normal emotions. Because, ultimately, your entire profession is predicated on deceit. Your emotional life will be ruined by yourself (Ricky Tarr), by your circumstances (Kathy Burke, magnificently) or by your friends with Smiley as object and subject of that last.

There's the betrayal of his wife and friend, which isn't as emotionally compelling as in the series, but that's because I think the film makes us see Smiley as a man who does exactly the same. The most affecting scene for me is the one where he takes Esterhaze to an air strip and let's him think he's about to be sent to the Eastern Bloc. It's also why I like the fact that they made Guillem gay. In the books he's a successful womaniser with a flash car. In the film he's also made to destroy his emotional life, because that can't exist in his world anymore.

The only character who doesn't have that through the body of the film (and arguably builds a sort of human relationship) is Prideaux and he ends up the most betrayed of them all.

I think the coldness is deliberate. It's the coldness of Smiley looking for weakness - such as emotions - in his enemies. I think they're skipping The Honourable Schoolboy, but that's a terribly important strand of Smiley's People too. He attacks Karla through his attachments.

[celedhring]

Watched Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy again, since I was with some friends that wanted to see it. I still think it's way too cold; there's a big undercurrent of emotion in there (Smiley's friendship with the mole, the camaraderie with a lot of people that suddenly are now suspects, his rivalry with Karla, his problems with his wife, etc...) that just doesn't come across in the screen. The series made a much better job of conveying that.

I disagree. It is cold but that's deliberate and I think it's a different emotion that it's conveying though.

For me the emotional pull of the film version is the sense that if you enter into this world you will be broken. You will not be allowed or able to carry on a normal life or have normal emotions. Because, ultimately, your entire profession is predicated on deceit. Your emotional life will be ruined by yourself (Ricky Tarr), by your circumstances (Kathy Burke, magnificently) or by your friends with Smiley as object and subject of that last.

There's the betrayal of his wife and friend, which isn't as emotionally compelling as in the series, but that's because I think the film makes us see Smiley as a man who does exactly the same. The most affecting scene for me is the one where he takes Esterhaze to an air strip and let's him think he's about to be sent to the Eastern Bloc. It's also why I like the fact that they made Guillem gay. In the books he's a successful womaniser with a flash car. In the film he's also made to destroy his emotional life, because that can't exist in his world anymore.

The only character who doesn't have that through the body of the film (and arguably builds a sort of human relationship) is Prideaux and he ends up the most betrayed of them all.

I think the coldness is deliberate. It's the coldness of Smiley looking for weakness - such as emotions - in his enemies. I think they're skipping The Honourable Schoolboy, but that's a terribly important strand of Smiley's People too. He attacks Karla through his attachments.

That's nice on paper, but it really doesn't come across in the film. I don't see Smiley going through the sacrifice of giving up his weaknesses in order to not be destroyed - admittedly he's been in Circus for long when the film happens, but then I can't buy he was attached to anything in the first place. The whole business with his wife and the mole is just glossed over and has little impact. He's the main character, he deserves more than that.

Guillem being gay is a nice touch, but then the scene where he gives up his relationship feels like an afterthought; I have never seen anything that would make me thing that he wouldn't act otherwise. Everybody is cold and professional, and does the right thing putting their emotions behind them, only Tarr comes across as somebody dominated by his emotions - one of the reasons why he ends up being one of the most compelling characters of the piece.

Again, I'm fine with Smiley or others deciding they have to jettison their emotions in order to survive in that world - it's a good theme that's at the core of most of Le Carré's books -, but I have to see the characters do that, not take it for granted.

[Sheilbh]

Smiley doesn't. I think the link that's made in that Christmas party scene is that maybe the reason he's so good at what he does is that betrayal's his personal life too, not just a vocation. His coldness and emotional damage isn't something forced on him by his role, like Guillem or Kathy Burke, but something that enables him to play that role better than the rest. I think the series does that with the flashback where he gives Karla a gift from his wife, the film's approach is that all his life is betrayal of one sort or another.

From an English perspective it's the same with Haydon - though I think this is even more emphasised in the book and the series - that part of what makes him such a good traitor is that he's such an Englishman. The damage of boarding school, abandoned and ultimately betrayed early trysts (Prideaux) and public school confidence is what enables him to be a useful mole. There's no attachment beyond the superficial for that class. Even Haydon's treachery is for 'aesthetic' reasons. There's an element with both that they could do no other and because of that they, and that world, destroys the people round them: Tarr, Esterhase, Guillem, Kathy Burke.

I find the film pleasing in it's nihilism - that to succeed in this world of the Circus you need to be empty, though I think the series view where Smiley does have this other life of wounded domestic pride and German first editions is also fine. I was more fond of the Guinness interpretation of Smiley until I read 'The Spy who Came in from the Cold'. I still love Guinness but I think Oldman's fits my image of Smiley more now. Plus I think the feeling of the film perfectly matches its, admittedly stylish, take on an exhausted, depleted 1970s Britain which is all slabs of grey and bakelite brown.

Everybody is cold and professional, and does the right thing putting their emotions behind them, only Tarr comes across as somebody dominated by his emotions.

In part I think that's an England in the 1970s aspect. There are parts of the series I find far more cold. The way Smiley flirts and plays along with the old woman (Kathy Burke in the film) to get what he wants from her seems stronger in the series.

Edit: Though all that does highlight a big weakness of the film which is from my experience it's difficult to follow if you don't already know the story

[celedhring]

I find the film pleasing in it's nihilism - that to succeed in this world of the Circus you need to be empty, though I think the series view where Smiley does have this other life of wounded domestic pride and German first editions is also fine.

That's why I like the series more; I see Smiley capable of being an emotional person; I see what he has to give up in order to not be destroyed. The series also makes a better job of portraying a sense of camaraderie between the people of Circus, which makes suspicion, manipulation and betrayal more compelling - particularly when it's Smiley doing it, like the bit you cite with Connie (Kathy Burke's character), which has such an obvious "closeted" crush on him in the series.

The series has the advantage of length, though, they can afford to build these relationships more. I get the feeling the movie is forced to undercut some interesting stuff in order to keep it under 150.

Though all that does highlight a big weakness of the film which is from my experience it's difficult to follow if you don't already know the story

Yeah, I had to constantly explain a lot of the lingo and circumstances to my friends while we were watching it. I don't mind it that much, though.