Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Caliga]

So what you are saying is that we'll be following the British/Soviet/American strategy with regard to Afghanistan here too.

[Berkut]

The question here is not "Should the US topple Qaddafi and then take over responsibility for whatever happens afterwards".

We are not talking about that - just whether or not we should help out some people fighting against a dictator. I think the mistake we make is turning this into something more than what it is, and then accepting a sense of responsibility because of that exaggerated sense.

There are some people trying to get rid of a dictator, and we decided to help them out in a limited manner. I hope that works out well. If it does, great. If it does not, bummer. Either way, I don't see how us helping group A get rid of group B obligates us to help group C get rid of group A at some future point.

[Razgovory]

Looks like the House didn't pass a bill supporting the Libyan adventure.  Almost all republicans were against it, Democrats were split with a slight majority favoring it.  I wonder if he GOP would have supported it if the President was one of theirs.  I remember them going on about a "Muscular Presidency" not so long ago.  Oh well, I think they were right to do it even if they did it for the wrong reasons.

As opposed to the adventure as I am, this is stupid. The most humane and sensible thing to do at this point is actually commit to getting rid of Qaddafi and ending this. I can't imagine we would let him win the civil war and stay in power at this point.

I see it as perfect opportunity to enforce the the WPA.  We really don't lose anything, we've had Gaddafi mad at us before so it's not like it will be new territory.  I would like to see war making powers back in the hands of Congress rather then President.  Besides, maybe our Euro friends can pick up the slack.  It is their backyard after all.  It'll give them something to do.

[Berkut]

I actually agree with Obama's claim that this involvement does not rise to the level of war making. We are supporting allies who are supporting rebels. We are not at war, not even a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, not at war" war.

[Razgovory]

Our planes are dropping bombs on people.  I'd say that's fairly warish.

[derspiess]

I see it as perfect opportunity to enforce the the WPA.  We really don't lose anything, we've had Gaddafi mad at us before so it's not like it will be new territory.  I would like to see war making powers back in the hands of Congress rather then President.  Besides, maybe our Euro friends can pick up the slack.  It is their backyard after all.  It'll give them something to do.

Dunno if I want a wounded Qadaffi to survive this mess, even if he gives up power & flees.  He was harmless to us before hostilities and it was a dumbass move to get involved, but going forward he's a threat to us as long as he's breathing air.

I'd like to see our Euro allies put some damned boots on the ground and finish the job, but it seems like they're incapable of anything requiring initiative

[derspiess]

I actually agree with Obama's claim that this involvement does not rise to the level of war making. We are supporting allies who are supporting rebels. We are not at war, not even a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, not at war" war.

I almost don't even care about this as an issue.  What really bothers me is that he got us involved in the first place with no initial explanation.  All he could offer up later on was that Qadaffi threatened to do mean things to some people inside his own borders.  How that matters to our national interests while we're flat broke is beyond me.

[The Minsky Moment]

If you would vaporize, you must first authorize.

[Caliga]

I'd like to see our Euro allies put some damned boots on the ground and finish the job, but it seems like they're incapable of anything requiring initiative

Ultimately, we picked the wrong side in the dubya dubya two.

[Razgovory]

I'd like to see our Euro allies put some damned boots on the ground and finish the job, but it seems like they're incapable of anything requiring initiative

It's Kosovo all over again.  "Please intervene America!  There are war crimes over there!  We have your back.  Well, by "have your back", we mean that our politicians will raise a ruckus about American imperialism and score cheap political points by stirring up anti-American sentiments."

Sigh.  With friends like these...

[Zoupa]

I'd like to see our Euro allies put some damned boots on the ground and finish the job, but it seems like they're incapable of anything requiring initiative

It's Kosovo all over again.  "Please intervene America!  There are war crimes over there!  We have your back.  Well, by "have your back", we mean that our politicians will raise a ruckus about American imperialism and score cheap political points by stirring up anti-American sentiments."

Sigh.  With friends like these...

It's funny because it's true. 

[Slargos]

And you know what is the real icing on the cake?

Every time an American soldier dies, a European gets his Wings. 

[Razgovory]

And you know what is the real icing on the cake?

Every time an American soldier dies, a European gets his Wings. 

Hope they aren't Airbus wings, or he'll need flippers as well.

[jimmy olsen]

So what does this mean?

Probably nothing. The lawyers here would know a lot better than me, but I don't think there is a way to bring a case on this. I think the check on presidential power in this case is impeachment, which obviously won't happen.

Congress can cut off the money.

[Sheilbh]

It's Kosovo all over again.  "Please intervene America!  There are war crimes over there!  We have your back.  Well, by "have your back", we mean that our politicians will raise a ruckus about American imperialism and score cheap political points by stirring up anti-American sentiments."

Sigh.  With friends like these...

 

The UK offered up 50 000 troops and to lead a ground force in Kosovo.  That convinced the US to join in threatening a ground war which, in turn, scared the Serbs into withdrawing.  There was very significant European commitment - at least from the UK.

And find me one (non-German and non-extremist) example of anyone complaining about American imperialism with Kosovo.

For what it's worth I initially opposed this war, but I've changed my mind.  In a weird way I think the stalemate - which seems to be cracking - has helped avert my worries.  We are fighting to ultimately remove the Gadaffi family from power.  We have probably prevented atrocities against civilians.  But also the time that this has dragged on has allowed the rebels to organise a sort-of alternative government that's in country and does seem to be directing the Free Libyan Forces which makes me think that the post-Gadaffi phase needn't be chaotic.

I like what the US has done which does seem to me to be supporting their allies (incidentally I quite like this whole leading from behind thing, I've been reading books on the ACW for the first time and it seems like the way Lincoln behaved - but that's for a whole other thread) because there are things like surveillance flights that we simply can't do.  I appreciate that, but do think Obama needs Congressional approval.