Sweden and the Great War

[Ape]

I have read quite a bit about the era in Sweden just before and just after WW1. The Swedish foreign policy was not as nutered as it would become under the Social Democrats in the twenties and thirties. The Swedish government would very likely at least demand a formal apology from the Tsar and compensation for any damages done. This could of course escalate into a full blown war if the Tsar is stubborn.

If war came in -14 it would be a disaster for Sweden, the army was horrible obsolete both in training and equipment. Any offensives done into Finland would have to need the support of German troops, of course the reverse would also be true, any offense into northern Sweden would be a nightmare. It is quite interesting to note that the Swedish armed forces was in a similar state of dissarray at the eve of both World Wars.

In real life Sweden sold quite a lot of agricultural products to Germany during the war, in fact so much was sold that there was problems in feeding their own city populations, combined with a poor harvest in 1917 this lead to food riots breaking out in Stockholm in 1917. When the Swedish government then tried to import food from overseas this was blockaded by Great Britain that felt that Sweden only had themselves to blame for selling agricultural products to Germany. This was solved later in 1917 after negotiations, but for instance Great Britain confiscated nearly 3000 postal packages with christmas presents from Swedish emmigrants in the USA to relatives in Sweden during the war.

The Swedish Iron Ore fields in the Kirunavaara, Luossavaara and Illuvaara areas was not as developed during 1914-18 as they were in 1939-45, but mining was conducted in large scale and had been since the mid 19th century, the railway to Narvik was at least finished in 1902, maybe a few years earlier, as was the harbour. But I have not read anything about any larger amounts of Swedish iron ore being shipped to Germany during WW1, nor have I read anything about ball-bearings being sold to Germany during WW1.

[jimmy olsen]

I suppose it would all depend on how much men and material the Swedes could distract from the main Russian theater in the East. If it was enough to precipitate an earlier Russian collapse than things could have proceeded quite differently.

Sweden was a country of 5 million, 2 millions less than Belgium.  I ask you this question: what was the military value of the Belgian Army in distracting the Germans?  Practically zero.  Sweden would have been a drop in the bucket, a non-entity military wise.  Their value would have been political, economic, and propaganda only.

A Russian corp sent to deal with the Swedes is a corp not fighting the Germans

A politics are important. The stronger the CP stands at the outset will sway how nations that are still neutral perceive the contest.

[Valmy]

A Russian corp sent to deal with the Swedes is a corp not fighting the Germans

The Russians problems against the Germans had nothing to do with a lack of soldiers.

[jimmy olsen]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

[The Brain]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

FWIW the Swedish border town of Haparanda experienced a huge transport boom in WW1.

[The Brain]

Factette: 65k POW invalids were exchanged between the Entente and CP and were transported through Haparanda. Some of them didn't make it home: 11 Germans, 205 Austrians and 2 Turks are buried in Haparanda (Russians were buried across the border in Tornio).

Some nice pics (feel free to google translate the text): http://www.historiskt.nu/normalsp/staten/sb_bd_haparanda/haparanda_station_08.html

[Valdemar]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

For sea transport Sweden would not be an issue, the belts of Denmark are not, and was not, controlled by sweden. Subs and German ships inside the baltic is another matter In fact denmark mined the straits and thus somewhat controlled transits.

FWIW Denmark for WW1, and WW1 only , was well prepared, dug in, with the most modern weapons and doctrines. To such an extend that the German high command estimated 1 mill. troops would be needed to take and control Sealand and Copenhagen.

EDIT http://www.vestvolden.info/Eng/index.htm short in english on the fortifications, quite alot of work

[Octavian]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

For sea transport Sweden would not be an issue, the belts of Denmark are not, and was not, controlled by sweden. Subs and German ships inside the baltic is another matter In fact denmark mined the straits and thus somewhat controlled transits.

Although that happened as a result of German threats. Either we did it or the Germans would come and do it for us.

The government consulted the British about it and they thought it was a wonderful idea since it would also limit the German navy.

[Valdemar]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

For sea transport Sweden would not be an issue, the belts of Denmark are not, and was not, controlled by sweden. Subs and German ships inside the baltic is another matter In fact denmark mined the straits and thus somewhat controlled transits.

Although that happened as a result of German threats. Either we did it or the Germans would come and do it for us.

The government consulted the British about it and they thought it was a wonderful idea since it would also limit the German navy.

Indeed, though I heard it was the British who asked us to do it.

Fact though, we held the maps of the mine fields

V

[Valmy]

FWIW Denmark for WW1, and WW1 only , was well prepared, dug in, with the most modern weapons and doctrines.

So what happened to abandon this very sensible strategy for WW2?

[The Brain]

FWIW Denmark for WW1, and WW1 only , was well prepared, dug in, with the most modern weapons and doctrines.

So what happened to abandon this very sensible strategy for WW2?

Since they weren't attacked being prepared in WW1 had been pointless.

[Valmy]

Since they weren't attacked being prepared in WW1 had been pointless.

[Neil]

FWIW Denmark for WW1, and WW1 only , was well prepared, dug in, with the most modern weapons and doctrines.

So what happened to abandon this very sensible strategy for WW2?

The advent of the bomber pretty much negated it.

[jimmy olsen]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

For sea transport Sweden would not be an issue, the belts of Denmark are not, and was not, controlled by sweden. Subs and German ships inside the baltic is another matter In fact denmark mined the straits and thus somewhat controlled transits.

FWIW Denmark for WW1, and WW1 only , was well prepared, dug in, with the most modern weapons and doctrines. To such an extend that the German high command estimated 1 mill. troops would be needed to take and control Sealand and Copenhagen.

EDIT http://www.vestvolden.info/Eng/index.htm short in english on the fortifications, quite alot of work

Well, I assume lots of stuff was shipped to Norway and then shipped through Sweden by rail.

Murmansk apparently was built in 1915, but I'm not sure how much capacity it had. I assume significantly less then in WWII.

[grumbler]

Question - Given the fact the Dardanelles  was closed and the Trans-Siberian railroad not yet in operation didn't all of the Entente supplies and arms shipped to Russia have to go through Scandinavia by default? Wouldn't most of this be cut off if Sweden enters the war on Germany's side causing the Russian war effort significant harm?

How developed was Murmansk at the time?

The TSRR was in operation before 1905 (remember the Russo-Japanese War fought after Russia completed it and started to dominate manchuria and, crucially, Korea?).  Murmansk was basically just a fishing village in 1914, but the railroad to it was completed in 1915.  The RR (like the TSRR) wasn't capable of moving the supplies that were being shipped in, of course, and the huge stockpiles of military supplied in Vladivostok and Murmansk served as the justification for the Allies sending troops to those locations after WW1, thus intervening in the Russian Civil War.

As an ironic aside, the US was intervening in favor of the Bolsheviks in Murmansk until the British and French called it for being offsides, whereupon US troops started fighting the Bolshies briefly before being withdrawn.