Sweden and the Great War

[garbon]

I'm distressed.

[jimmy olsen]

I'm distressed.

Why?

Question: Was Swedish ore of similar importance to the German war effort as it was in WWII

[grumbler]

The Admiral was on his way to attack Gotland and was recalled at the last minute.

He was on his way to investigate a supposed naval concentration there and was recalled long before the "last minute."  Had he not been recalled, he would have arrived, seen that there was no ship concentration there, and left. 

The impact of this alternate history is that the Russian Navy would have had 47.3 tons less coal in January 1915 then it historically did.

[Caliga]

The impact of this alternate history is that the Russian Navy would have had 47.3 tons less coal in January 1915 then it historically did.

Also, is there any guarantee Sweden would DoW and join the allies just because of a Russian violation of Swedish territorial waters?  During WWII Swiss airspace was violated many times, and I think some Swiss towns were even bombed by mistake (by both sides), and the Swiss did not join either the Axis or the Allies.

I guess I don't know what the supposed plans of this Russian admiral were exactly with regard to Gotland.

[jimmy olsen]

The Admiral was on his way to attack Gotland and was recalled at the last minute.

He was on his way to investigate a supposed naval concentration there and was recalled long before the "last minute."  Had he not been recalled, he would have arrived, seen that there was no ship concentration there, and left. 

The impact of this alternate history is that the Russian Navy would have had 47.3 tons less coal in January 1915 then it historically did.

Just because there wasn't a concentration of ships doesn't mean there wasn't any in the area. I'd have to look at Swedish naval records to see their distribution though.

Either way once he's in Swedish waters looking for their fleet there's a possibility for escalation. He may have continued looking for the fleet rather than turning around. From what I've read he seemed to be looking for trouble.

[Darth Wagtaros]

The Commies bombed Sweden for supporting Finland during the Winter War, don't think it was accidental.  Not much Sweden could do, so they just kinda took it.  Gustav Adolphus was rolling around in his grave.

The impact of this alternate history is that the Russian Navy would have had 47.3 tons less coal in January 1915 then it historically did.

Also, is there any guarantee Sweden would DoW and join the allies just because of a Russian violation of Swedish territorial waters?  During WWII Swiss airspace was violated many times, and I think some Swiss towns were even bombed by mistake (by both sides), and the Swiss did not join either the Axis or the Allies.

I guess I don't know what the supposed plans of this Russian admiral were exactly with regard to Gotland.

[Faeelin]

I'm distressed.

Why?

Question: Was Swedish ore of similar importance to the German war effort as it was in WWII

Yes, but the Germans got it anyway and ther eis no way Russia could threaten it.

[jimmy olsen]

I'm distressed.

Why?

Question: Was Swedish ore of similar importance to the German war effort as it was in WWII

Yes, but the Germans got it anyway and there is no way Russia could threaten it.

No? Why?

Wags, they took it because there was no choice.

In this scenario, Russia is also at war with Germany, a Germany who's governmental system is much more compatible with Sweden than that of the Nazis. Here they have a choice, they might not take it, but they have it.

[Faeelin]

No? Why?

How active was the Russian navy in the Baltic OTL? How effectively did it interdict Swedish ore?

[Valmy]

I suppose it would all depend on how much men and material the Swedes could distract from the main Russian theater in the East. If it was enough to precipitate an earlier Russian collapse than things could have proceeded quite differently.

Sweden was a country of 5 million, 2 millions less than Belgium.  I ask you this question: what was the military value of the Belgian Army in distracting the Germans?  Practically zero.  Sweden would have been a drop in the bucket, a non-entity military wise.  Their value would have been political, economic, and propaganda only.

[Cecil]

I suppose it would all depend on how much men and material the Swedes could distract from the main Russian theater in the East. If it was enough to precipitate an earlier Russian collapse than things could have proceeded quite differently.

Sweden was a country of 5 million, 2 millions less than Belgium.  I ask you this question: what was the military value of the Belgian Army in distracting the Germans?  Practically zero.  Sweden would have been a drop in the bucket, a non-entity military wise.  Their value would have been political, economic, and propaganda only.

Not a really fair comparison though? I mean Belgium being obliterated so fast could have something to do with being overrun by a million men of the finest army of the time who werent even bloodied by then and more or less completely fresh. Any eventual swedish contribution would go to secondary fronts where they potentially could punch at their weight at least. Tbh I have no idea whatever capabilities sweden had at the time but then I doubt any reserve troops the russians put in finland or whatever would have been of any quality to speak of.

Anyway russia being aggressive in the Baltic....happy days for the HSF?

[Razgovory]

The Admiral was on his way to attack Gotland and was recalled at the last minute.

He was on his way to investigate a supposed naval concentration there and was recalled long before the "last minute."  Had he not been recalled, he would have arrived, seen that there was no ship concentration there, and left. 

The impact of this alternate history is that the Russian Navy would have had 47.3 tons less coal in January 1915 then it historically did.

Well that's the last time I take Tim at his word.

[grumbler]

Just because there wasn't a concentration of ships doesn't mean there wasn't any in the area. I'd have to look at Swedish naval records to see their distribution though.

And just because this brilliant admiral was concerned enough to investigate a report of a German-Swedish alliance, doesn't mean that there were any Swedish or German ships involved.

Either way once he's in Swedish waters looking for their fleet there's a possibility for escalation. He may have continued looking for the fleet rather than turning around. From what I've read he seemed to be looking for trouble.

I have seen nothing whatever that would support your assertion.  Essen (not von Essen, btw) was focused on supporting mine laying operations in the Gulf of Riga, and counter-patrolling (he would capture the wreck of the Magdeburg in August), not chasing phantom fleets.  He certainly wasn't "looking for trouble" given his inferior position.

The fact that your source doesn't even get his name right doesn't give me much confidence this non-event even occurred.  The wiki entry based on it is no more persuasive.

[grumbler]

Yes, but the Germans got it anyway and ther eis no way Russia could threaten it.

The Russians did raid this trade, and in fact deployed submarines against it as well as surface raiders.

[Berkut]

I have seen nothing whatever that would support your assertion.  Essen (not von Essen, btw)

Was he the guy the US carrier class in WW2 was named after???