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Law Enforcement and Deadly Force

Started by Caliga, April 09, 2009, 07:35:16 AM

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If a suspect pulls a gun on a cop, should the cop be allowed to react with deadly force?

Yes
23 (88.5%)
No
0 (0%)
It Depends (i.e. the option for lawyers and politicians)
3 (11.5%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Caliga

Quote from: Strix on April 09, 2009, 06:05:40 PMSeven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.
0 Ed Anger Disapproval Points

Scipio

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 09, 2009, 06:55:02 PM
Well, the first problem is that the continuum of force wasn't followed;  if the taser doesn't work, you go up the force level with the gun, not back down.  By wrestling with him, putting yourself in a position to have exactly what happened: a gun taken away, which is the cardinal sin of Cop No-Nos.

The second problem is that the officer is female.  Chicks make shitty cops.  Fin.

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.
What I speak out of my mouth is the truth.  It burns like fire.
-Jose Canseco

There you go, giving a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.
-Every cop, The Wire

"It is always good to be known for one's Krapp."
-John Hurt

DontSayBanana

Quote from: Scipio on April 09, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

Yeah. Guns have one overarching purpose of design. If you're going to use one, use it for what it was designed for.

BTW, I noticed ulmont saying an advancing naked man is not a threat earlier in the thread. I disagree with that because of the "crazy factor-" an unarmed man advancing might not be, but in this situation the man was pretty clearly not in control of his own faculties- it's conceivable he might not have acted within normal levels of restraint, either, so he was definitely a threat by being a wild card.
Experience bij!

dps

Quote from: ulmont on April 09, 2009, 10:34:22 AM
An unarmed person?  Never. 

Back when I was a little kid, cops were still allowed to shoot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back.  IMO, that should still be the case is the crimes the person is suspected of are serious violent offenses

alfred russel

Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2009, 08:17:10 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 09, 2009, 06:05:40 PMSeven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.

I hope I'm never a bystander to a gunfight in Kentucky.
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-garbon, February 23, 2014

garbon

Quote from: dps on April 09, 2009, 10:11:00 PM
Back when I was a little kid, cops were still allowed to shoot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back.  IMO, that should still be the case is the crimes the person is suspected of are serious violent offenses

Yeah because police on the scene always have all the facts and are never deceived by faulty tips.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

DontSayBanana

Quote from: garbon on April 09, 2009, 10:17:23 PM
Yeah because police on the scene always have all the facts and are never deceived by faulty tips.

You've got a point there, garbon, but in this case ulmont doesn't. One of the few things that doesn't seem to be in dispute here is that this guy was clearly violent and obviously dangerously unpredictable.
Experience bij!

Scipio

Quote from: alfred russel on April 09, 2009, 10:15:04 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 09, 2009, 08:17:10 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 09, 2009, 06:05:40 PMSeven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.

I hope I'm never a bystander to a gunfight in Kentucky.
No kidding.
What I speak out of my mouth is the truth.  It burns like fire.
-Jose Canseco

There you go, giving a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.
-Every cop, The Wire

"It is always good to be known for one's Krapp."
-John Hurt

Caliga

Yeah, I know.  :lol:

I suspect the "marksman" requirement is in there to make sure blind people can't get a CCDW.

I recently fired about 20 rounds (ok, more like 50  :blush: ) at a target at 21 feet and I had no problem getting all of the shots in the bullseye, most nearly dead-center, aside from the five or so I took at the head and neck. :menace:
0 Ed Anger Disapproval Points

Ed Anger

Quote from: Caliga on April 10, 2009, 06:44:51 AM
Yeah, I know.  :lol:

I suspect the "marksman" requirement is in there to make sure blind people can't get a CCDW.

I recently fired about 20 rounds (ok, more like 50  :blush: ) at a target at 21 feet and I had no problem getting all of the shots in the bullseye, most nearly dead-center, aside from the five or so I took at the head and neck. :menace:

It is like shooting womp rats at beggar's canyon back home.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Scipio on April 09, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.

Scipio

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2009, 05:18:50 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 09, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.
It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.
What I speak out of my mouth is the truth.  It burns like fire.
-Jose Canseco

There you go, giving a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.
-Every cop, The Wire

"It is always good to be known for one's Krapp."
-John Hurt

Strix

Quote from: Scipio on April 10, 2009, 06:26:36 PM
It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

And that is the biggest issue. A jury is much less sympathetic towards a dead criminal than a maimed "victim of circumstance and society" misunderstood bad guy who never had a chance growing up.  :mad:
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Scipio on April 10, 2009, 06:26:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2009, 05:18:50 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 09, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.
It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

Which is why I preferred carrying .357s and .45s as personal weapons as opposed to the 9mm Glock POS.
The larger the bore, the more reduction in testimony.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2009, 07:07:25 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 10, 2009, 06:26:36 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2009, 05:18:50 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 09, 2009, 09:01:02 PM
FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.
It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

Which is why I preferred carrying .357s and .45s as personal weapons as opposed to the 9mm Glock POS.
The larger the bore, the more reduction in testimony.

The RI state police carry the .357 Sig Sauer. :menace:
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
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