Law Enforcement and Deadly Force

[Berkut]

I fucked up the story, now that I read over my OP.

She shot him BEFORE he wrestled her gun away.  First, she tazed him, and when he didn't respond to that, she drew her gun and shot him.  THEN he grabbed her gun.

Oh my, that is a rather different story then.

So she tazed him.
Then she shot him.

At what point where they wrestling? Why did she shoot the naked guy? How could he possibly be a threat?

[Malthus]

I fucked up the story, now that I read over my OP.

She shot him BEFORE he wrestled her gun away.  First, she tazed him, and when he didn't respond to that, she drew her gun and shot him.  THEN he grabbed her gun.

Back up, Kentucky boy - did she shoot him before or during wrestling to cuff him? What exactly prompted her to do it - that he wasn't cooperating, or that he attacked her?

Your story lacks key details. 

[ulmont]

SOP is that someone threatening the use of deadly force can be neutralized with deadly force.

Yeah, that's not usually debated, it's just that the line of when a reasonable person would believe there was a threat of deadly force is often blurry.

[Berkut]

SOP is that someone threatening the use of deadly force can be neutralized with deadly force.

Yeah, that's not usually debated, it's just that the line of when a reasonable person would believe there was a threat of deadly force is often blurry.

True. Which is why I think there is a pretty good line defined right now - an officer can use deadly force if you threaten to use deadly force. But that does not mean they MUST do so, just protects them if in fact they decide that is the proper response.

A bit of grey area is not a bad thing.

[Berkut]

I fucked up the story, now that I read over my OP.

She shot him BEFORE he wrestled her gun away.  First, she tazed him, and when he didn't respond to that, she drew her gun and shot him.  THEN he grabbed her gun.

Back up, Kentucky boy - did she shoot him before or during wrestling to cuff him? What exactly prompted her to do it - that he wasn't cooperating, or that he attacked her?

Your story lacks key details. 

No shit - I am still not sure exactly what happened.

Hell, I could even see where the crazy naked guy might have been justified in shooting the cop, depending on how his story actually happened!

Which raises an interesting question - if a cop was acting illegally during the performance of his duties, and unjustly threatened someone with deadly force, and you shot him....would you ever have a chance in hell of not getting thrown in jail?

[ulmont]

Which raises an interesting question - if a cop was acting illegally during the performance of his duties, and unjustly threatened someone with deadly force, and you shot him....would you ever have a chance in hell of not getting thrown in jail?

Yes.  You might get sent to the morgue instead.

...in seriousness, this has happened before in no-knock searches gone bad, and the shooter is always prosecuted.

[Malthus]

Which raises an interesting question - if a cop was acting illegally during the performance of his duties, and unjustly threatened someone with deadly force, and you shot him....would you ever have a chance in hell of not getting thrown in jail?

Yes.  You might get sent to the morgue instead.

...in seriousness, this has happened before in no-knock searches gone bad, and the shooter is always prosecuted.

No doubt they are always prosecuted, but are they always convicted?

If some cops attempted to suddenly break into your house without identifying themselves and showing a warrant - how are you to know they aren't crooks themselves? Shooting them could well be justified self-defence.

[Stonewall]

My remarks are based on the following assumptions:

1. Man is naked banging on the door.  Nobody is in immediate danger.
2. Cop shows up sees naked man banging on the door and tasers him.
3. Taser does not work.
4. Cop, seeing taser doesn't work, shoots man.
5. Man, having just been shot, charges at cop and wrestles her gun away from her.
6. Man shoots cop in the legs and then shoots others.

Man is morally justified (but likely not legally justified) in wrestling gun away from the cop, but not shooting her once she became unarmed.  No justification for shooting the others, unless the girlfriend/wife really deserved it.

[Malthus]

No shit - I am still not sure exactly what happened.

Hell, I could even see where the crazy naked guy might have been justified in shooting the cop, depending on how his story actually happened!

Which raises an interesting question - if a cop was acting illegally during the performance of his duties, and unjustly threatened someone with deadly force, and you shot him....would you ever have a chance in hell of not getting thrown in jail?

Yeah being tazed and then shot in the stomach if one is guilty of nothing more than naked shit disturbing would put anyone in a bad mood. Hell, if that was me and I thought lady cop was just out to kill me, damn right I'd try to get the gun away from her ... though once I had it, maybe shooting up the rest of the neighbourhood wasn't such a good idea ...

[grumbler]

Which raises an interesting question - if a cop was acting illegally during the performance of his duties, and unjustly threatened someone with deadly force, and you shot him....would you ever have a chance in hell of not getting thrown in jail?

Unfortunately, probably not.  As ulmont notes, people who have shot cops in legitimate self-defense have gone down.  Look up Cory Maye and Ryan Frederick.

[grumbler]

No doubt they are always prosecuted, but are they always convicted?

If some cops attempted to suddenly break into your house without identifying themselves and showing a warrant - how are you to know they aren't crooks themselves? Shooting them could well be justified self-defence.

They are sometimes sentenced to death.

[ulmont]

No doubt they are always prosecuted, but are they always convicted?

I've never read of a case where someone was not convicted.  Here's one example of the guy ending up on death row (now merely life in prison):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

Radley Balko, for Reason, does a good job tracking these War on Drugs abuses (and it's always drugs where a no-knock goes bad).
http://www.reason.com/staff/hitandrun/143.html

[Caliga]

Hopefully Languish won't crash on me before I get this post out like it did 30 minutes or so ago. 

...

Well, the issue is that it's not clear at this point exactly WHAT happened, since the Courier-Journal (daily rag) is reporting one thing, one of the TV stations is reporting another, and eyewitnesses including Princesca's cousin are saying something else (but he wasn't there until after the shootings took place).

Here's what her cousin said, in terms of the timeline:

1.  Cop arrives on-scene in response to a 911 domestic disturbance call.  When she arrives, she finds a raving naked man who appeared to have some sort of injury banging on his door and making verbal threats.  A neighbor is also there apparently trying to intervene and calm the suspect down (I think the neighbor is actually who made the call, not the perp or his spouse).

2.  Cop draws taser, orders suspect to stop banging on his door and making a disturbance.

3.  Suspect verbally explodes at cop and begins advancing toward cop.

4.  Cop attempts to subue suspect with a taser gun (i.e. not a contact taser).

5.  Suspect shrugs off the tasing and continues to advance.

6.  Cop draws sidearm and points it at the suspect, ordering suspect to stop.

7.  Suspect ignores order and continues to advance.

8.  Cop fires one round at the suspect, striking them in the midsection/abdomen/stomach/whatever.

9.  Suspect charges cop and wrestles her sidearm away from her.

10.  Cop attempts to flee from suspect (??? - this part seemed odd to me).  Suspect fires twice at cop and strikes cop twice in the legs.

11.  Suspect turns the gun on his spouse (who I guess had come outside by now), striking her with one round, and then on the neighbor, striking them with a single round.

12.  Cop manages to regain control of gun, but apparently does not fire it again.

The details of and after point 12 are very murky, as in when exactly did backup show up, and how exactly did she manage to finally subdue the suspect?  The news reported he collapsed before or during point 12. from his earlier injury.

[DGuller]

Is it wise to send a single woman cop to a domestic disturbance situation?

[Caliga]

Is it wise to send a single woman cop to a domestic disturbance situation?

Yes.