Law Enforcement and Deadly Force

[Caliga]

Seven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.

[Scipio]

Well, the first problem is that the continuum of force wasn't followed;  if the taser doesn't work, you go up the force level with the gun, not back down.  By wrestling with him, putting yourself in a position to have exactly what happened: a gun taken away, which is the cardinal sin of Cop No-Nos.

The second problem is that the officer is female.  Chicks make shitty cops.  Fin.

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

[DontSayBanana]

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

Yeah. Guns have one overarching purpose of design. If you're going to use one, use it for what it was designed for.

BTW, I noticed ulmont saying an advancing naked man is not a threat earlier in the thread. I disagree with that because of the "crazy factor-" an unarmed man advancing might not be, but in this situation the man was pretty clearly not in control of his own faculties- it's conceivable he might not have acted within normal levels of restraint, either, so he was definitely a threat by being a wild card.

[dps]

An unarmed person?  Never. 

Back when I was a little kid, cops were still allowed to shoot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back.  IMO, that should still be the case is the crimes the person is suspected of are serious violent offenses

[alfred russel]

Seven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.

I hope I'm never a bystander to a gunfight in Kentucky.

[garbon]

Back when I was a little kid, cops were still allowed to shoot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back.  IMO, that should still be the case is the crimes the person is suspected of are serious violent offenses

Yeah because police on the scene always have all the facts and are never deceived by faulty tips.

[DontSayBanana]

Yeah because police on the scene always have all the facts and are never deceived by faulty tips.

You've got a point there, garbon, but in this case ulmont doesn't. One of the few things that doesn't seem to be in dispute here is that this guy was clearly violent and obviously dangerously unpredictable.

[Scipio]

Seven yards (21 feet) is known as the reactionary gap.  At 21 feet, the officer has about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds to draw his firearm, bring it up to a firing position, and aim before an attacker can reach them.

This is interesting... in the state of Kentucky, to obtain a CCDW you must:

* Demonstrate that you can manually load a magazine, insert it into the pistol, and properly switch off the safety (if applicable) in a reasonable timeframe;

* Fire twenty rounds into a silhouette target at 21 feet.  Of those 20 rounds, 11 must hit the silhouette somewhere (does not have to be in the bullseye at all).

* Take a safety course with the certified firearms instructor who supervises you while performing the first two requirements I listed above.

I think the requirements for steps 1 and 2 are a little different for revolver owners.

I hope I'm never a bystander to a gunfight in Kentucky.

No kidding.

[Caliga]

Yeah, I know. 

I suspect the "marksman" requirement is in there to make sure blind people can't get a CCDW.

I recently fired about 20 rounds (ok, more like 50  ) at a target at 21 feet and I had no problem getting all of the shots in the bullseye, most nearly dead-center, aside from the five or so I took at the head and neck.

[Ed Anger]

Yeah, I know. 

I suspect the "marksman" requirement is in there to make sure blind people can't get a CCDW.

I recently fired about 20 rounds (ok, more like 50  ) at a target at 21 feet and I had no problem getting all of the shots in the bullseye, most nearly dead-center, aside from the five or so I took at the head and neck.

It is like shooting womp rats at beggar's canyon back home.

[CountDeMoney]

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.

[Scipio]

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.

It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

[Strix]

It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

And that is the biggest issue. A jury is much less sympathetic towards a dead criminal than a maimed "victim of circumstance and society" misunderstood bad guy who never had a chance growing up. 

[CountDeMoney]

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.

It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

Which is why I preferred carrying .357s and .45s as personal weapons as opposed to the 9mm Glock POS.
The larger the bore, the more reduction in testimony.

[jimmy olsen]

FBI agents are trained to keep shooting until the guy goes down.  I thought that cops were trained that as well, which is the top reason for restrictions on the use of lethal force; since shooting someone with a gun is always potentially lethal, there's no reason to shoot to wound.

"Shoot to wound" is also known as "intent to maim". Not a viable policy.

It also leaves the witness alive, IMHO.

Which is why I preferred carrying .357s and .45s as personal weapons as opposed to the 9mm Glock POS.
The larger the bore, the more reduction in testimony.

The RI state police carry the .357 Sig Sauer.