Lexington: "A Nation of Jailbirds"

[Berkut]

And before anyone just goes and writes these numbers off on just "the war on drugs":

A pre-emptive strawman!

Awesome!

[Berkut]

I wonder how much the incarceration rate, as compared to other Western countries, is skewed by the huge differences in rates between demographics.

How does the US incarceration rate among middle class Americans compare to the rate among a similar group of middle class Belgians or something?

[Barrister]

But if an employer doesn't ask specifically about a criminal record odds are they might never know (in particular about minor criminal records, like petty theft or drunk driving).

[Martinus]

honestly, I cannot say that I find a problem with this. There should be consequences for committing felonies, and they should extend beyond the criminal punishment meted out by the courts. We live in societies, and if you cannot follow the rules set by society, then there is a often very heavy social price to pay.

I think this is what I would call the biggest difference in the penal policies in the US, compared to Europe (and possibly, Canada). In Europe we believe that someone who has paid his debt to the society should not be treated worse than anyone else, unless there is an overriding public policy reason for that. In general, we try to make it easier for such people to be reintegrated into the society - after all, the society has ruled them no longer dangerous to the public by letting them out of prison, and therefore it is neither fair nor productive to continue punishing them after that.

[Martinus]

I wonder how much the incarceration rate, as compared to other Western countries, is skewed by the huge differences in rates between demographics.

How does the US incarceration rate among middle class Americans compare to the rate among a similar group of middle class Belgians or something?

So you are saying it's based on greater social inequalities in the US than in Europe, after all?

[Barrister]

I think this is what I would call the biggest different to the penal policies in the US, compared to Europe (and possibly, Canada). In Europe we believe that someone who has paid his debt to the society should not be treated worse than anyone else, unless there is an overriding public policy reason for that. In general, we try to make it easier for such people to be reintegrated into the society - after all, the society has ruled them no longer dangerous to the public by letting them out of prison, and therefore it is neither fair nor productive to continue punishing them after that.

I think its a gross over-generalization to say that "In Europe we believe...".

Entire countries and continents cannot be generalized in that way.

[Berkut]

But if an employer doesn't ask specifically about a criminal record odds are they might never know (in particular about minor criminal records, like petty theft or drunk driving).

But they will ask.

[Berkut]

honestly, I cannot say that I find a problem with this. There should be consequences for committing felonies, and they should extend beyond the criminal punishment meted out by the courts. We live in societies, and if you cannot follow the rules set by society, then there is a often very heavy social price to pay.

I think this is what I would call the biggest difference in the penal policies in the US, compared to Europe (and possibly, Canada). In Europe we believe that someone who has paid his debt to the society should not be treated worse than anyone else, unless there is an overriding public policy reason for that. In general, we try to make it easier for such people to be reintegrated into the society - after all, the society has ruled them no longer dangerous to the public by letting them out of prison, and therefore it is neither fair nor productive to continue punishing them after that.

It isn't punishment though. It is the freedom for one person to make a choice about who they wish to employ.

Also, did you check with all the other Europeans before deciding you spoke for all of them?

And I still don't have an answer to my question - is it actually illegal to ask someone if they have committed a felony in the past?

[Sheilbh]

I like Jim Webb from what I've read of him and this increases my regard for him.  How's this playing in Virginia, grumbler?  The impression I get is that he's someone who seems tough enough to not really get in trouble if he doesn't spend his time ostentatiously declaring how tough on crime he is and passing troublesome legislation to prove it.

Other than that I broadly agree with what seems to be a Languish consensus, though, this being Languish the consensus is expressed through vigorous argument, on what's caused it.  Over-harsh drugs laws and judges not having as much power as they should.

[Berkut]

honestly, I cannot say that I find a problem with this. There should be consequences for committing felonies, and they should extend beyond the criminal punishment meted out by the courts. We live in societies, and if you cannot follow the rules set by society, then there is a often very heavy social price to pay.

I think this is what I would call the biggest difference in the penal policies in the US, compared to Europe (and possibly, Canada). In Europe we believe that someone who has paid his debt to the society should not be treated worse than anyone else, unless there is an overriding public policy reason for that. In general, we try to make it easier for such people to be reintegrated into the society - after all, the society has ruled them no longer dangerous to the public by letting them out of prison, and therefore it is neither fair nor productive to continue punishing them after that.

It isn't punishment though. It is the freedom for one person to make a choice about who they wish to employ.

Also, did you check with all the other Europeans before deciding you spoke for all of them?

And I still don't have an answer to my question - is it actually illegal to ask someone if they have committed a felony in the past?

I wonder how much the incarceration rate, as compared to other Western countries, is skewed by the huge differences in rates between demographics.

How does the US incarceration rate among middle class Americans compare to the rate among a similar group of middle class Belgians or something?

So you are saying it's based on greater social inequalities in the US than in Europe, after all?

I guess I might be saying that if it was the case that "greater social inequality" was the only reason there might be demographic differences.

I suspect that isn't the case though.

For example, one reason there might be these differences in the US rather than some portions of Europe could be historical European insistence on maintaining relative demographic "purity".

[Martinus]

It isn't punishment though. It is the freedom for one person to make a choice about who they wish to employ.

Well, it is seen differently under EU labour law. Generally, any discrimination is prohibited in employment, unless it is justified. Discrimination based on past convictions is considered unjustified, unless the work is of the type that requires a spotless record.

Also, did you check with all the other Europeans before deciding you spoke for all of them?

These rules are reflected in EU-wide regulations and directives. I think it is fair to say they represent the "European approach" even if every single European does not necessarily agree with them.

And I still don't have an answer to my question - is it actually illegal to ask someone if they have committed a felony in the past?

I posted this already an hour ago or so - yes it is illegal to ask someone about their criminal record, unless the job they are to perform requires a spotless record. In fact, the law expressly says what you are allowed to ask, and anything beyond that is likely to be considered illegal (for example you cannot ask people about their marital status, or health status, or whether they are pregnant etc.)

[Capetan Mihali]

One factor has to be the way prison life is organized in US penitentiaries, with a flourishing gang culture, significant overcrowding in many places, and few opportunities for training (vocational, educational, etc) that would be useful outside of prison.  The violence of prison life (which I think must be massively underreported since there is such a stigma associated with snitching) certainly can't be helping recidivism.

I think another issue is the way that prison interacts with communities in the US and with the disintegration of working-class community life, with the combined factors of the loss of industrial jobs, growing availability and profitability of heroin and especially crack cocaine, declining public schools in many areas, changes in family life, etc., etc.  People come back from incarceration into the same marginal conditions from which they left, with the added obstacle of a fresh criminal record.  Some kind of family or community support seems to be crucial.

[Admiral Yi]

So you are saying it's based on greater social inequalities in the US than in Europe, after all?

Exactly.  As soon as the AIG bonuses are cut the crime rate will plummet.

[Martinus]

Berkut and others, specifically under Polish law (which implements the EU law), you can ask a prospective employee the following:
- their name,
- date of birth,
- place of residence,
- education,
- previous employment (including employment certificates, which state the reasons for termination of previous employment),
- other personal data (including data about children) if this is required for the employee to be able to benefit from some special rights and privileges,
- social security number,
- other information, only to the extent this is required by other laws and regulations (example, a security guard has to present his criminal record certificate).

In terms of health, for example, the employer can only send the employee to an independent medical doctor who then issues a certificate that the employee is fit for work and/or whether he requires additional special facilities to perform the work. This certificate does not provide any other information about the employee's health.

[Berkut]

Interesting.

So if someone was convicted of robbing his former employer at gunpoint, shooting his wife, and raping his daughter - a prospective future employer has no right to know that?