Lexington: "A Nation of Jailbirds"

[Berkut]

Only you would read so much into and be so enraged by a simply rhetorical flourish.

Only you would be enraged by and be so dismissive of simple logical reasoning.

Nice ad hom though.

[Valmy]

What could possibly justify doubling the prison population in twelve years? And what is the rate now, in 2009? Have these years been cherry-picked as outliers?

It was the war on drugs.  The really bizarre thing is that during that same period the crime rate was lower...

[Martinus]

Malthus, according to wikipedia, the rate actually seems to be increasing, so at least the 1997 rate does not seem to be an outlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States

[Berkut]

""A Leviathan unmatched in human history", is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America's prison system."



Unmatched in human history???

Really?

[Caliga]

If he doesn't say weird attention-grabbing shit, he doesn't make tenure.

[Berkut]

What could possibly justify doubling the prison population in twelve years? And what is the rate now, in 2009? Have these years been cherry-picked as outliers?

It was the war on drugs.  The really bizarre thing is that during that same period the crime rate was lower...

Of course it was lower, we sent all the criminals to jail!

And obviously, if 2/3rds just get sent back because they keep committing crime, then we are letting too many back out.

[Berkut]

If he doesn't say weird attention-grabbing shit, he doesn't make tenure.

Yeah, I don't blame some dipshit from Brown University for saying something that stupid, I do blame the journo for latching onto it though.

The numbers speak for themselves, don't they? Is all the histrionic exaggeration really necessary?

[Martinus]

Also, out of interest, here is a British Home Office publication about incarceration rates in different countries:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf

It seems the Western Europe average is around 100 or less (same for Canada), with Eastern Europe having the rate in the area of 200-300, and countries like Belarus etc. in their 500s.

I couldn't find which year it is from, but comparing the US rates to the wiki table I posted earlier, it seems to be some time in the early 2000s.

[Valmy]

"“A Leviathan unmatched in human history”, is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America’s prison system."



Unmatched in human history???

Really?

Well there really is no more serious news mag out there than the economist.  If you think the writing there is juvenile or crap I suggest you only buy serious scholarly journals because it only goes downhill from there.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The rate may be unprecedented for a country where the rule of law obtains. Clearly the Nazi and Stalinist despotisms (to mention a couple) will have exceeded that rate.

[Martinus]

""A Leviathan unmatched in human history", is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America's prison system."



Unmatched in human history???

Really?

Well there really is no more serious news mag out there than the economist.  If you think the writing there is juvenile or crap I suggest you only buy serious scholarly journals because it only goes downhill from there.

Well, I just ignore Berkut's posts and advise you to do the same. He has made several posts in this thread already, however none of them is about the issue which the article deals with, and all involve rather juvenile nitpicking about a handful of rhetorical hyperboles.

[Valmy]

Of course it was lower, we sent all the criminals to jail!

That doesn't make much sense.  How would we have a higher percentage of people in jail with proportionately fewer arrests?  Are prosecuters just alot better now?  Defense lawyers just that much worse?  Our courts are becoming kangaroo courts?

[Malthus]

If he doesn't say weird attention-grabbing shit, he doesn't make tenure.

Yeah, I don't blame some dipshit from Brown University for saying something that stupid, I do blame the journo for latching onto it though.

The numbers speak for themselves, don't they? Is all the histrionic exaggeration really necessary?

I dunno, it does seem pretty outrageous, and the necessary qualifiers just underlie what is outrageous about it.

It is certainly not "unmatched in human history" because there are any number of dictatorships, totalitarian states and the like which are and have been far worse. But it is "unmatched" or at least odd and anomalous for a first-world democracy to imprision such a high percentage of its population, at least when not engaged in an all-out total war - is there any other free society which has done as much?

[Malthus]

Of course it was lower, we sent all the criminals to jail!

That doesn't make much sense.  How would we a higher percentage of people in jail with proportionately fewer arrests?  Are prosecuters just alot better now?  Defense lawyers just that much worse?  Our courts are becoming kangaroo courts?

I suspect sentences have simply become much longer for the same crimes.

[Martinus]

Of course it was lower, we sent all the criminals to jail!

That doesn't make much sense.  How would we a higher percentage of people in jail with proportionately fewer arrests?  Are prosecuters just alot better now?  Defense lawyers just that much worse?  Our courts are becoming kangaroo courts?

I suspect sentences have simply become much longer for the same crimes.

I suspect this explains some of the difference compared to other Western democracies (but not ALL of it - the 6:1 ratio is just too big to be explained away with just the fact that European courts are more lenient on criminals), however have the US courts really become more harsh in the recent years? Could any of the US lawyers cabal weigh in on that?