Evolutionary advantage of homosexuality: Super Uncles

[Neil]

Probably just evolutionary garbage left over from an ancestor.

[Razgovory]

DSM IV kicked it out for political reasons not for medical.  Other paraphilic disorders are still there.

I really don't think it makes sense.  Homosexual encounters account for a staggeringly high percentage of all sex in some species, even ones with far greater gender sexual dimorphism.  Giraffes have way more gay sex than straight sex.  You really think that is all just some sort of accident?

Blind watchmaker?

[Razgovory]

DSM IV kicked it out for political reasons not for medical.  Other paraphilic disorders are still there.

Psychological, not medical.  Really, sexual assault is sexual assault no matter how you slice it; for it to remain classified a paraphilic disorder, it needs to interfere with an individual's ability to normally function in society.  Once society's adapted to largely tolerate a given behavior, that behavior's ceased to be a disorder within the mores of that society.

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

[alfred russel]

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

That is a low bar you are setting.

[Malthus]

DSM IV kicked it out for political reasons not for medical.  Other paraphilic disorders are still there.

Psychological, not medical.  Really, sexual assault is sexual assault no matter how you slice it; for it to remain classified a paraphilic disorder, it needs to interfere with an individual's ability to normally function in society.  Once society's adapted to largely tolerate a given behavior, that behavior's ceased to be a disorder within the mores of that society.

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

By that criterion, my job ranks pretty high on the disorder list. 

[Razgovory]

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

That is a low bar you are setting.

It is the Bar set by the DSM IV.  A disorder is a condition that causes enough stress that it inhibits daily life.

[Josquius]

Genetic disorders have been around longer than history has, so you can't attribute their survival to modern medicine. I think Zanza is right; survival of a particular trait doesn't necessarily mean it offers an evolutionary advantage.

As to the subject at hand, I don't know if it does offer such an advantage or not. I just don't agree with Martinus' a priori assumption that it must.

Doesn't this often come down to them having positive baggage?
e.g. a set of genes caused a messed up trait which destroys someones chance of survival.
Some of these genes taken without the others however greatly increase the chance of survival. Though some kids will end up with the negative side of the genes some will end up with the positive and so the genes are carried on.


Gay uncle stuff- meh, old news.

[DGuller]

I think the premise that genes can only survive if they offer a selective advantage is wrong. That would suggest that all genetic disorders would eventually die out, something that is patently not true.

It's also wrong in a sense that the genetic disorders may in fact be in the process of dying out.  Evolution is not just something that happened a long time ago and got finished, and now we're all perfectly pruned of any undesirable traits.

[crazy canuck]

I think the premise that genes can only survive if they offer a selective advantage is wrong. That would suggest that all genetic disorders would eventually die out, something that is patently not true.

No, natural selection depends on mutations.  Mutations happen all the time.  Natural selection does not create super animals that are immune to mutation and so genetic disorders will always occur.

[alfred russel]

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

That is a low bar you are setting.

It is the Bar set by the DSM IV.  A disorder is a condition that causes enough stress that it inhibits daily life.

You said stress--not stress that inhibits daily life. Virtually anything can qualify as the former. Homosexuality doesn't induce stress that inhibits daily life--at least for most people (and those for which it does probably could use counseling, but the cure isn't to change their sexuality, but help them accept it).

[Faeelin]

It is the Bar set by the DSM IV.  A disorder is a condition that causes enough stress that it inhibits daily life.

Eh, I still think this is a bit of a red herring. Being lefthanded once caused people a lot of stress, but that was largely societal, no?

[Faeelin]

Anyway, I did a paper on this for a seminar on sexual selection a few years ago. Tis interesting. In some species it is caused by stress on the parents. In others it seems to play a more positive role.

Blount B. 1990. Issues in bonobo (pan paniscus) sexual behavior. American Anthropologist 92 (3): 702-714.

Braithwate L. 1981. Ecological studies of the black swan III: Behaviour and social organization. Australian Wildlife Research 8:135-146.

Camperio-Ciani A., F. Corna, C. Capiluppi. 2004. Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity. Proceedings of the Royal Society 271(1554): 2217-21.

Field K., T. Waite. 2004. Absence of female conspecifics induces homosexual behaviour in male guppies. Animal Behavior 68 (6): 1381-1389.

Mann, J. Establishing trust: socio-sexual behaviour and the development of male-male bonds among the Indian Ocean bottlenose dolphins. In Summer V., P. Vasey, editors. Homosexuality in animals. New York: Cambridge University Press; 2006 p. 107-130.

Meek L., K. Schulz, C. Keith. 2006. Effects of prenatal stress on sexual partner preference in mice. Physiology & Behavior 30 (2):133-138.

Roughgarden J. Evolution's rainbow: diversity, gender, and sexuality in nature and people. Berkeley: University of California Press; 2004 p. 474

Shearer M., L. Katz. 2006. Female-female mounting performance among goats stimulates sexual performance in males. Hormones and Behavior 50:33-37.
Smuts B., J. Watanabe. 1990. Social relationships and ritualized greetings in adult male baboons (papio cynocephalus anubis).

Vasey P., B. Chapais, C. Gauthier. 1998. Mounting interactions between female macaques: testing the influence of dominance and aggression. Ethology 104: 387-398.

[Razgovory]

It still causes stress amongst the those with the condition, so it should be a disorder.

That is a low bar you are setting.

It is the Bar set by the DSM IV.  A disorder is a condition that causes enough stress that it inhibits daily life.

You said stress--not stress that inhibits daily life. Virtually anything can qualify as the former. Homosexuality doesn't induce stress that inhibits daily life--at least for most people (and those for which it does probably could use counseling, but the cure isn't to change their sexuality, but help them accept it).

I clarified.  I suppose a cure for lots of paraphilia would be just have them accept it.  But most people don't find this acceptable.

[Josquius]

A mental disorder is just a mental quirk which is deemed to be undesirable.

[Martinus]

A mental disorder is just a mental quirk which is deemed to be undesirable.

Nope. The psychological definition takes into account such things as being able to function in the society, which is more objective than "undesirable".