Is High Speed Rail a good idea?

[Duque de Bragança]

Running at full capacity does not mean that the TGV is profitable. It could still run at a loss.

In fact, if SNCF was not government-owned, the reasonable thing to do would be to rise prices so much that they can sell exactly as many tickets as they have seats available. That would increase their income after all.

It sure helps though and they have been increasing prices don't worry. TGV is their money maker and Paris-Lyon/Marseille is the number one...
When the prices were too high and the new high speed track not that long i.e only to Tours instead of going till Bordeaux or even Spain, guess what happened...
The TGV Atlantique was not that popular.
Things changed though and a new high-speed line will be build til Bordeaux and Toulouse and eventually Spain to connect to the local high-speed network and to disenclave the Iberian Peninsula.

FYI, The SNCF loses money with some provincial interregional trains (Corail like your IC) and local trains in older tracks (all money goes to TGV...) but they are subsidised by the regions.

PS: Besides, even the WSJ guy recognised Paris-Lyon was breaking even

[Zanza]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

[Alatriste]

There are only two profitable rail lines in the entire world. 

Source?

Sorry, I just read an article on that a few days ago, but I don't remember where.  I found it interesting that those two particular routes would be profitable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703389004575033672230734364.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

That's actually a mere affirmation in an article, made without dates, sources, quotes, evidence or base... and plainly *wrong*. Just the fact that it doesn't even mention the lines Paris-London or Madrid-Barcelona, or several others in Japan makes the article so highly dubious that it borders the ludicrous...

Actually most, if not all HS lines make a decent operating profit. Things change, of course, if you define 'profit' as an amount high enough to finance building costs, but then pretty much all roads are awfully unprofitable, not to mention harbors and airports...

[Duque de Bragança]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

That's the biggest disadvantage of the French network.
Wait for a couple more HSLs to shorten the trip (Bordeaux-Toulouse and Narbonne-Nîmes bypass ).
Because right now, it takes an awful lot of time (5h40 at the minimum)
But then even the ICE takes two hours to go from Frankfurt to Saarbrücken...

[Alatriste]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

Mind you, these are planned lines. That rail in red between Bordeaux and Marseilles isn't a TGV line today and won't be for quite a few years...

[Duque de Bragança]

Mind you, these are planned lines. That rail in red between Bordeaux and Marseilles isn't a TGV line today and won't be for quite a few years...

The part between Toulouse and Narbonne is not yet scheduled. However, remember that the TGV can use the classic line since it's the same gauge.

[Alatriste]

The part between Toulouse and Narbonne is not yet scheduled. However, remember that the TGV can use the classic line since it's the same gauge.

True, but high speed trains requires very gentle slopes and curves. Without extensive modification TGV can use existing lines only at a much reduced speed.

[Caliga]

We went through the same thing here with our Acela Express "high speed" trains.  They look real neat like a TGV, but at least when they debuted they couldn't get anywhere near top speed because most of the lines in the Northeast Corridor (Washington D.C. -> Boston) were in such poor shape.  I think they've since done a bit of improvement work, but I don't know if they are done or what.

[DGuller]

Actually most, if not all HS lines make a decent operating profit. Things change, of course, if you define 'profit' as an amount high enough to finance building costs, but then pretty much all roads are awfully unprofitable, not to mention harbors and airports...

It should be how it's defined.  Capital has costs; just because the gov't covers them doesn't mean that they're not there.  I would agree, though, that evaluating infrastructure projects based on direct return on investment alone is idiotic, and a recipe for economic stagnation.

[DGuller]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

Isn't that how French rail worked since Nappy III's time?

[The Minsky Moment]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

Paris is a natural transport hub; it has a central location that links it both to the Channel and the north european plain.

Geographically, the heart of the France is a bit of a no-man's land; dominated by the sparsely-settled volcanic Auvergne with the forbidding Massif Central.  The terrain is quite challenging for infranstructure, and over centuries of history, this area has been one of the least settled parts of Western Europe.  The current and planned TGV lines reflect this quite well.

[Viking]

Paris is pretty much the center-point of France, 7th Century wise. Like London, Berlin and Stockholm it combines a fording spot of a major "river" with a port for seagoing ships. You can sail up the Seine and with a short trip overland reach the headwaters of the Loire and the Rhone. You can sail down the Seine and reach the entire Normandie, Brittany and Gascogny. Gascogny has the Garonne which allows you to sail to Tolouse. Which is pretty much all of France.

It's not surprising the Gascogny remained English for so long, it was just as close to Paris as it was to London. It's not surprising that France remained weak when both ends of the Seine (Normandy and Burgundy) were in enemy hands.

[Zanza]

But then even the ICE takes two hours to go from Frankfurt to Saarbrücken...

That's not even the biggest issue with the German rail network. The main problem is that Germany is a federation and every state wants to have its share of the federal railway. That's why the ICE between Cologne and Frankfurt stops at the world-famous 30,000 inhabitants town of Montabaur. Montabaur happens to be in Rhineland-Palatinate and as the track crosses that state, they wanted their own stop. So now the train stops in this town and can't just go the entire way at maximum speed.
Stuff like bypassing Lyon to get faster to Marsaille from Paris would never work in Germany.

[DGuller]

I think you guys need to find some guy to unite all those fragmented states into a great country.

[Viking]

I think you guys need to find some guy to unite all those fragmented states into a great country.

Angela von Bismarck?