Is High Speed Rail a good idea?

[Duque de Bragança]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

You should see England's high speed rail network:

:sadblush:

Well, the map is a bit misleading since it includes TGV/ICE services on conventional lines whereas the British HSL is a real one from the Tunnel to London.

[Gups]

[
That's true of any kind of subsidy, the activity will increase.  Still not apparent to me a new port, for example, will have benefits to society higher than the charges levied on the ships that dock there.

Employment for dock workers, construction workers and others increased tax take from employees and companies that benefit are the most obvious.

If the port allows for the cheaper movement of goods then this will tend to reduce prices.

I'm less convinced on the externalities for high speed train routes. Generally, new train lines can assist in the regeneration of urban areas but this applies only where they provide public transport where there was none before. An extreme example is the Docklands Light Railway in London which allowed for the creation of a whole new financial district. The benefits of that (pretty inexpensive) infrastructure must have repaid its costs hundreds of times over. For high speed, whcih is city to city and generally utilising existing mainline stations, it's harder to see any regeneration.

[Admiral Yi]

Employment for dock workers, construction workers and others increased tax take from employees and companies that benefit are the most obvious.

If the port allows for the cheaper movement of goods then this will tend to reduce prices.

I'm less convinced on the externalities for high speed train routes. Generally, new train lines can assist in the regeneration of urban areas but this applies only where they provide public transport where there was none before. An extreme example is the Docklands Light Railway in London which allowed for the creation of a whole new financial district. The benefits of that (pretty inexpensive) infrastructure must have repaid its costs hundreds of times over. For high speed, whcih is city to city and generally utilising existing mainline stations, it's harder to see any regeneration.

Pretty sure those direct participants you mention don't count as externalities.  A container ship docks in Long Beach, pays a market fee, unloads and delivers a brand new made in China Nike shoe to DGuller.  DGuller gets the direct benefit of the shoe, everyone else gets the benefit of money.  What do you and I get out of the fact that DGuller is wearing new shoes?

[Gups]

The port delivers more than one pair of shoes, surely? Most of the population consumes products. If the transport costs of those products are reduced and if the savings are at least partially passed on to us, we benefit. A lot of "ifs", I know.

[DGuller]

Employment for dock workers, construction workers and others increased tax take from employees and companies that benefit are the most obvious.

If the port allows for the cheaper movement of goods then this will tend to reduce prices.

I'm less convinced on the externalities for high speed train routes. Generally, new train lines can assist in the regeneration of urban areas but this applies only where they provide public transport where there was none before. An extreme example is the Docklands Light Railway in London which allowed for the creation of a whole new financial district. The benefits of that (pretty inexpensive) infrastructure must have repaid its costs hundreds of times over. For high speed, whcih is city to city and generally utilising existing mainline stations, it's harder to see any regeneration.

Pretty sure those direct participants you mention don't count as externalities.  A container ship docks in Long Beach, pays a market fee, unloads and delivers a brand new made in China Nike shoe to DGuller.  DGuller gets the direct benefit of the shoe, everyone else gets the benefit of money.  What do you and I get out of the fact that DGuller is wearing new shoes?

Because there are ports, cotton growers, Nike factories, and the little Asian children working there, all got to specialize more in their trade.  It's hard to quantify, I'm a PhD or two short to be able to do that, but I strongly feel intuitively that all this increase in specialization has more winners than losers, and that the net win exceeds the port fees.

[Admiral Yi]

The port delivers more than one pair of shoes, surely? Most of the population consumes products. If the transport costs of those products are reduced and if the savings are at least partially passed on to us, we benefit. A lot of "ifs", I know.

The question is whether we benefit net of the cost of building and operating the port.

[crazy canuck]

The port delivers more than one pair of shoes, surely? Most of the population consumes products. If the transport costs of those products are reduced and if the savings are at least partially passed on to us, we benefit. A lot of "ifs", I know.

The question is whether we benefit net of the cost of building and operating the port.

And that depends on the demand for that particular trade route.  It may be that a new port will be better placed then older ports.  For example the new port being constructed on the Central BC coast will cut shipping times from Japan considerably and it is well contected by Rail to Chicago making it a guarranteed success.

On the other hand it makes little sense to build a new port between Seattle and Vancouver.  Those ports already adequately handle the demand to the rail links those ports already service.