Is High Speed Rail a good idea?

[Viking]

But then even the ICE takes two hours to go from Frankfurt to Saarbrücken...

That's not even the biggest issue with the German rail network. The main problem is that Germany is a federation and every state wants to have its share of the federal railway. That's why the ICE between Cologne and Frankfurt stops at the world-famous 30,000 inhabitants town of Montabaur. Montabaur happens to be in Rhineland-Palatinate and as the track crosses that state, they wanted their own stop. So now the train stops in this town and can't just go the entire way at maximum speed.
Stuff like bypassing Lyon to get faster to Marsaille from Paris would never work in Germany.

Same in Norway, roads have to go through every single little shithole village along the way, slowing the highway down to 50 kph from 80 kph just as the road veers from the straight and level to go up and around some hill just to go through som shithole little village with 15 houses a gas station and a small grocery store.

[Duque de Bragança]

But then even the ICE takes two hours to go from Frankfurt to Saarbrücken...

That's not even the biggest issue with the German rail network. The main problem is that Germany is a federation and every state wants to have its share of the federal railway. That's why the ICE between Cologne and Frankfurt stops at the world-famous 30,000 inhabitants town of Montabaur. Montabaur happens to be in Rhineland-Palatinate and as the track crosses that state, they wanted their own stop. So now the train stops in this town and can't just go the entire way at maximum speed.
Stuff like bypassing Lyon to get faster to Marsaille from Paris would never work in Germany.

Between Frankfurt and Saarbrücken it could be easiled improved, at a price though but then Frankfurt-Mannheim is close to saturation (200 kph  section "only").

We've discussed this before but there are worse examples in France with beetroot stations such as Lorraine TGV, even Forbach just after Saarbrücken is better, or Haute Picardie TGV which serve 0 inhabitant

Not all TGVs or ICEs stop there though, fortunately.

[Sheilbh]

It's interesting how the TGV network is like a Kraken with Paris in its middle. Is there anything in France that is not completely centralized? What if I want to go from Bordeaux to Marseille?

You should see England's high speed rail network:

:sadblush:

[Josquius]

Britain's narrowness really should make for having high speed rail two routes- a westerly one up to Manchester via Birmingham and a easterly one to Edinburgh via Newcastle and Leeds. And I suppose Cardiff via Bristol if we must.
Its really bizarre how there are flights from the northern cities down to London and Bristol.

*sigh*
And here I am dreaming of a London-Dublin railway and we can't even get stuff in Britain done...

[crazy canuck]

If we had a high speed train connecting Vancouver with Seattle I would take it regularly.

[Barrister]

If we had a high speed train connecting Vancouver with Seattle I would take it regularly.

It's the border, not the speed of transportation, that's the delay there...

[crazy canuck]

If we had a high speed train connecting Vancouver with Seattle I would take it regularly.

It's the border, not the speed of transportation, that's the delay there...

exactly.  Just go and precheck before boarding and sail over the border without the hour long line ups.  By the time I would be pulling up to a grumpy border guard I could be chilling in Jazz Alley.

[Admiral Yi]

I would agree, though, that evaluating infrastructure projects based on direct return on investment alone is idiotic, and a recipe for economic stagnation.

The externalities of travel and transport are not totally obvious to me.

[DGuller]

I would agree, though, that evaluating infrastructure projects based on direct return on investment alone is idiotic, and a recipe for economic stagnation.

The externalities of travel and transport are not totally obvious to me.

It's less obvious the grander the scale is, and I can't explain it in proper terminology.  I'll try to explain how I intuitively perceive the externalities involved, and hopefully won't make any blunders in my reasoning. 

In general, the world is richer on the whole when it's better connected.  Transportation costs are a drain on the trade activity of all kinds, and thus mutually beneficial trades may fail to happen because the costs due to geographical distances are prohibitive.  The better the connections are between all points, the more effectively supply can meet demand for various trade activities.

[Admiral Yi]

It's less obvious the grander the scale is, and I can't explain it in proper terminology.  I'll try to explain how I intuitively perceive the externalities involved, and hopefully won't make any blunders in my reasoning. 

In general, the world is richer on the whole when it's better connected.  Transportation costs are a drain on the trade activity of all kinds, and thus mutually beneficial trades may fail to happen because the costs due to geographical distances are prohibitive.  The better the connections are between all points, the more effectively supply can meet demand for various trade activities.

That's true of any kind of subsidy, the activity will increase.  Still not apparent to me a new port, for example, will have benefits to society higher than the charges levied on the ships that dock there.

[DGuller]

That's true of any kind of subsidy, the activity will increase.  Still not apparent to me a new port, for example, will have benefits to society higher than the charges levied on the ships that dock there.

I wasn't talking about subsidies, I was talking about the general economic benefits of improved connectedness.  Improving transportation by itself will promote more economic activity, due to lower natural barriers to trade.  The subsidies don't enter the picture yet, I'm just trying to explain the positive externalities generated.

[Admiral Yi]

I wasn't talking about subsidies, I was talking about the general economic benefits of improved connectedness.  Improving transportation by itself will promote more economic activity, due to lower natural barriers to trade.  The subsidies don't enter the picture yet, I'm just trying to explain the positive externalities generated.

If we're talking about the societal benefit of infrastructure projects that don't generate a profit, we're talking about de facto subsidies.

[DGuller]

I wasn't talking about subsidies, I was talking about the general economic benefits of improved connectedness.  Improving transportation by itself will promote more economic activity, due to lower natural barriers to trade.  The subsidies don't enter the picture yet, I'm just trying to explain the positive externalities generated.

If we're talking about the societal benefit of infrastructure projects that don't generate a profit, we're talking about de facto subsidies.

I'm talking about the societal benefits of infrastructure, period.  The externalities are there whether those projects generate profits on their own or not.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm talking about the societal benefits of infrastructure, period.  The externalities are there whether those projects generate profits on their own or not.

OK, tell me more about them.

[BuddhaRhubarb]

If we had a high speed train connecting Vancouver with Seattle I would take it regularly.

It's the border, not the speed of transportation, that's the delay there...

exactly.  Just go and precheck before boarding and sail over the border without the hour long line ups.  By the time I would be pulling up to a grumpy border guard I could be chilling in Jazz Alley.

:beatnik: