French Report Calls for Ban on Veil

[Duque de Bragança]

I honestly don't know what your point is.  Like I said before If you Euros want to show how backward you are that you confuse a woman wearing funny outfit with a guy with dynamite strapped to his chest I can't stop you.  I do wish to know something.  When you guys banned these outfits in schools back in 2004 did that accomplish something worthwhile?

As to backwardness 

Yes, the number of cases dropped. A limit needed to be shown (cf. islamic dress then no swimming, then no history lessons about Crusades, Shoah etc.).

The mosques where they are "told" to wear that sight-impeding garment produce the terrorists and foreign jihadists in Afghanistan and elsewhere...
Is that so hard to understand ? The salafists (origin of the current islamist insurgency/terrorism movement) start by "reislamising" the dressing customs because in the 60's and '70s the North African women were removing veils (women's lib etc.). The burqa and niqab i.e FULL VEIL not mere scarfs were not part of North African tradition to begin with. It's not a neutral religious practice by any means.
Besides, the ones wearing the burqa/niqab are a minority within the muslims...

So you should start by acknowledging it's full veil we are dealing with to know what you are talking about instead of mixing up everything.

The main point actually is that you can be asked to identify yourself, if you keep a motorbike helmet on, it won't be possible as well. Is that discrimination against bikers ?

My only concern is whether Sarkozy and the like do not do their legal homework very well and end up with an unconstitutional law.

[Admiral Yi]

You could... if there were a compelling public interest in hiding human bodies from sight.

A compelling public interest is not needed to justify individual freedom.

On the other hand, I can see some justification in saying that we have a compelling public interest in making sure women aren't forced to wear burkahs...

I can see some too.  But this law makes no reference to coercion.  The garment is illegal regardless of whether the woman is wearing it of her own free will or not.

[Martinus]

A compelling public interest is not needed to justify individual freedom.

Err, what? This response makes no sense in relation to what Alatriste said. Individual freedom in this context would mean the right to walk around naked.

[Admiral Yi]

Err, what? This response makes no sense in relation to what Alatriste said. Individual freedom in this context would mean the right to walk around naked.

You're right.  I thought he was talking about the burkha, not walking around nude.

[Neil]

Err, what? This response makes no sense in relation to what Alatriste said. Individual freedom in this context would mean the right to walk around naked.

You're right.  I thought he was talking about the burkha, not walking around nude.

Both, actually.

[Valmy]

For the schools, the pupils are minors and the shit started with it then went on with islamists refusing sports/whatever PTI for the girls on religious grounds, then the studies of the Crusades (evil infidel agression) and last but not least the Final Solution since it's Jewish propaganda. Useful idiots on the left generally sided with the islamos such as Ségolène saying Japanese cartoons were more dangerous than the islamic veil I eagerly await her opinion this time. Thanks to the law, the cases dwindled so the fundies are having another try since they failed previously.

Notice how your beloved Turkey bans even veils in the universities though it might change soon with the islamist government...
The issue has not been reported very well it seems. First, the veil is increasingly worn in Morocco and Algeria, not in Tunisia where, guess what, it's banned in some cases...

Second, it's not your average traditional North African veil, it's the NIQAB or BURQA (the ninja or kunoichi-like outfits) which prevent identification. These veils are not used in North Africa, only by Wahhabists and in Afghanistan.
In my area of Paris, I only see them worn by Persian Gulf tourists women who carry the kids and luggage while the husband wearing western clothes just strolls but in other areas it's not the case...

Yes I know they are often banned and not worn in Turkey and North African states...which was what I believe I said...that it is not worn very often in the areas French Muslims usually immigrate from.

As for the socialists being the ones to support religious conservatives...well that is just two terrible ideas coming together...sad to see left wingers throwing away the only things redeeming about them.

[Duque de Bragança]

For the schools, the pupils are minors and the shit started with it then went on with islamists refusing sports/whatever PTI for the girls on religious grounds, then the studies of the Crusades (evil infidel agression) and last but not least the Final Solution since it's Jewish propaganda. Useful idiots on the left generally sided with the islamos such as Ségolène saying Japanese cartoons were more dangerous than the islamic veil I eagerly await her opinion this time. Thanks to the law, the cases dwindled so the fundies are having another try since they failed previously.

Notice how your beloved Turkey bans even veils in the universities though it might change soon with the islamist government...
The issue has not been reported very well it seems. First, the veil is increasingly worn in Morocco and Algeria, not in Tunisia where, guess what, it's banned in some cases...

Second, it's not your average traditional North African veil, it's the NIQAB or BURQA (the ninja or kunoichi-like outfits) which prevent identification. These veils are not used in North Africa, only by Wahhabists and in Afghanistan.
In my area of Paris, I only see them worn by Persian Gulf tourists women who carry the kids and luggage while the husband wearing western clothes just strolls but in other areas it's not the case...

Yes I know they are often banned and not worn in Turkey and North African states...which was what I believe I said...that it is not worn very often in the areas French Muslims usually immigrate from.

As for the socialists being the ones to support religious conservatives...well that is just two terrible ideas coming together...sad to see left wingers throwing away the only things redeeming about them.

To be fair, it was a lone communist parliament member André Gérin who started with this initiative, supported by the UMP conservatives (for France) , some dissenters notwithstanding. Greens are against the ban too.

[Razgovory]

I honestly don't know what your point is.  Like I said before If you Euros want to show how backward you are that you confuse a woman wearing funny outfit with a guy with dynamite strapped to his chest I can't stop you.  I do wish to know something.  When you guys banned these outfits in schools back in 2004 did that accomplish something worthwhile?

As to backwardness 

Yes, the number of cases dropped. A limit needed to be shown (cf. islamic dress then no swimming, then no history lessons about Crusades, Shoah etc.).

The mosques where they are "told" to wear that sight-impeding garment produce the terrorists and foreign jihadists in Afghanistan and elsewhere...
Is that so hard to understand ? The salafists (origin of the current islamist insurgency/terrorism movement) start by "reislamising" the dressing customs because in the 60's and '70s the North African women were removing veils (women's lib etc.). The burqa and niqab i.e FULL VEIL not mere scarfs were not part of North African tradition to begin with. It's not a neutral religious practice by any means.
Besides, the ones wearing the burqa/niqab are a minority within the muslims...

So you should start by acknowledging it's full veil we are dealing with to know what you are talking about instead of mixing up everything.

The main point actually is that you can be asked to identify yourself, if you keep a motorbike helmet on, it won't be possible as well. Is that discrimination against bikers ?

My only concern is whether Sarkozy and the like do not do their legal homework very well and end up with an unconstitutional law.

I'm still not exactly understanding what you mean here.  What cases dropped?  What is this about not teaching crusades?  Lets start with what is the goal of this type of legislation?  What was the goal of the previous legislation?  Were those goals met?

[grumbler]

You could... if there were a compelling public interest in hiding human bodies from sight.

I think you misunderstand the nature of politics and reality.  Your opinion doesn't create an objective reality, and so liberal democratic state governments do not have to conform to your opinion or forgo the option of being liberal democratic states.

The enacters of the law merely have to believe that they are acting on a compelling public interest in order to meet the test.  Your approval is purely optional.

On the other hand, I can see some justification in saying that we have a compelling public interest in making sure women aren't forced to wear burkahs...

You have a compelling public interest in making sure men are not forced to wear long blonde wigs, or making sure that no one is forced to eat chocolate cake, as well.  The means of ensuring lack of compulsion in an activity isn't to make the activity itself illegal, though.  You would pretty much have to make everything illegal, save those things that you want to allow people to be forced to do.

[Josephus]

A compelling public interest is not needed to justify individual freedom.

Err, what? This response makes no sense in relation to what Alatriste said. Individual freedom in this context would mean the right to walk around naked.

To be honest, I don't know why people aren't allowed to walk around naked if they want to...and I imagine that odds are no one's going to give a rat's ass if you do walk around naked down the streets of Paris.
However, you keep harping back to this argument,and as other people have said, it's not comparable.

What the French gov't is doing is not telling people that they have to wear clothes, it's telling a small minority group of people that they Cannot wear a certain outfit. A good lawyer can tell the difference.

This is nothing short of religious and or ethnic discrimination. Is it illegal for a woman in Paris to cover her face with a scarf if it's cold outside?

Note, I am not in favour of the Hibab or whatever it's called, and maybe if the government made a case that forcing a woman to wear one is abuse, I might be more in favour of such a ban. I think it's an incredibly sexist thing.

That said, if a woman wants to wear one, or feels religiously or culturally obligated to wear one, in a liberal democracy the law should protect that right.

[Admiral Yi]

The ban on public nudity may or may not be justified, but it's a pretty weak argument that since other countries engage in this irrational ban France is allowed to engage in its own irrational ban.

BTW, I recall that women in Ontario (all of Canada?) won the right in court to go topless.

[Josephus]

BTW, I recall that women in Ontario (all of Canada?) won the right in court to go topless.

Yes. I'm no lawyer, but in Ontario it is legal for a woman to walk down the street topless. That said I've yet to see one (or two) in all this time. Note, though, I think places have the right to prohibit that. In other words, I don't think a woman can go topless into a public place like Canada's Wonderland or anything.

[DontSayBanana]

The thing with public nudity is that there's multiple justifications for a ban: isolation of contaminants, safety (a community simply isn't capable of enforcing the same standards of cleanliness and debris removal in all public areas that a private citizen is within their own lodgings), temperature regulation.  I'm not sure I agree with a ban, though.  There's no material justification for the state to force removal of a veil- it's one group's sensitivity being used to overrule another group's sense of modesty.  There needs to be a better justification for compelling citizens to comply than simply that it offends some experts; not wearing the veil would offend others, so there's no net progress for the community, and the only result will be a group of suddenly pissed-off muslims.

[Warspite]

It may shock some of the perpetually outraged here, but in fact some Muslim women prefer wearing "the veil". So I would no sooner ban burqas, niqabs etc than I would wearing country clothing in town or white socks with black shoes.

Unless, of course, you guys have a magic method for determining which women are being forced to wear this kind of dress.

[Ed Anger]

white socks with black shoes.

Give me liberty, or give me death!