Breaking News: 7.0 Earthquake in Haiti

[Slargos]

Can't believe cruise liners are still taking vacationers to Haiti. I know, what difference does it make if they're sunbathing in Haiti or in the DR. But it's a principle. I love the "toss the bone" thing..."We're bringing in supplies." Right. Very nice

Your kind is all about gestures, face and doing what looks and feels good rather than what actually is good. I am not surprised by these sentiments.

"Eat your dinner, children in africa are starving" 

[Josephus]

I think a lot of sensible people, arguably not so much on this forum, would be appalled by the very idea of lying on a beach in Haiti right now. I agree, its symbolic and that lying on a beach in Florida doesn't change anything, but there's something immorally wrong about it. But maybe it's just me.

[The Larch]

can also bring with them ideas and some of the culture from the new country; look at the American impact on southern Italy and Sicily, or almost all of Mexico.

American cultural influence in Sicily and Southern Italy is mostly explained through the presence of troops there in WWII, and the occupation afterwards, not because of emigration.

This seems fair, although I think that the Italian-American population has, at least since then, existed in a dialog with the mother country far more than most immigrant groups from Europe.

I'd say that the dialog you talk about would act more as a way of the emigrant population to remain in touch with the home country, rather than the other way around, although communication would obviously go in both directions.

[The Larch]

I stand corrected. It only makes my point the more strong, however.

The regrowth potential of these populations is obviously tremendous, especially considering all the talk of starvation and poverty.

Any population that can be more than doubled in a generation is obviously not starving, and moving large portions of it elsewhere without also somehow curtailing the room for regrowth (perhaps with a programme of enforced sterilization? Queequeg? Perhaps that could work? Humane enough for you?) will simply create a situation where some other nation has to feed that group, and the original problem will be back in short order.

Nope, it's not like that. It's actually a valid reproductive strategy from an ecological pov, and one you can find in many under-developed countries, although in the case of humans there are more issues to be considered. By breeding large offsprings when there's big mortality amongst the population, you maximize the chance of at least some of them reaching adult life. If they only had smaller offsprings, and they died anyway from some other reason (disease, violent death, etc.), all their efforts would be wasted. It's not just about resources, although they also count.

Since I haven't formally studied the subject, I am naturally not going to have all the facts.

I'm still at a loss as to how a starving population can double in a generation.

Obviously those populations aren't in a constant state of famine, those would be sporadic. Also, famines don't affect whole countries, but parts of them, so only part of their population is subject to them.

Edit: For instance, in the case of Ethiopia, the last big episode of famine was between 84 and 86, because of a combination of drought, plagues and civil war. Before the famine there were around 30 millions of Ethiopians, out of which around 8 million suffered the famine, with 1 million of them dieing from it. After the famine, population rose and nowadays there are around 75 million Ethiopians, due to huge birth rates (5.4 children per woman), compensated by hideous child mortality (7.7%) and very low life expectancy (47 years for males and barely 50 for women).

[Slargos]

I think a lot of sensible people, arguably not so much on this forum, would be appalled by the very idea of lying on a beach in Haiti right now. I agree, its symbolic and that lying on a beach in Florida doesn't change anything, but there's something immorally wrong about it. But maybe it's just me.

I am confident it's not just you. People respond to sentimental symbolism.

95% of "children" arriving as refugees to sweden without their legal guardian are male, and while some of them are children legally speaking (15-17) a lot are 19-24 and some are categorized as children though they are clearly in their 30s.

What does the propaganda commercials on TV and in newspaper use as their poster child however? A 12 year old girl.

[Drakken]

I will just leave this here...

Wow, that's a lot of future zombis. Zombi apocalypse is nigh upon us!

[Savonarola]

And not a minute too soon, Chavez weighs in:

US denies 'Haiti occupation' 


Haitian police are stretched thin as violence spreads across the capital [EPA]


The US is prepared to "augment" UN and Haitian government forces if they need help with security, but has denied its military has taken charge of the earthquake-devastated Caribbean nation.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, PJ Crowley, a spokesman for the US state department, rejected suggestions said that US military needs were taking priority over the needs of quake survivors.

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"The democratically-elected government of Haiti is in charge," he said.

"This is an international effort, the US is not in charge here, the government of Haiti is in charge, the UN is in charge - we're supporting them."

His comments followed criticism from foreign governments and aid groups that the US has prioritised military needs instead of humanitarian ones after taking over operations at the Haitian capital's airport.

'US occupation'

On Sunday Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, accused the US military of occupying Haiti and said Daniel Ortega, the Nicaraguan president, was also concerned about the US deployment.

"It appears that the United States is occupying Haiti militarily, taking advantage of the tragedy," Chavez said on his weekly television show.

The Venezuelan leader's comments are an indication of the sensitivity of US soldiers operating in a Caribbean state where they have intervened in the past.

Nearly 13,000 US troops will be sent to the area by Monday and Barack Obama, the US president, has mobilised military reserves to help in the Haiti operation.

The move was "necessary to augment the active armed forces of the United States for the effective conduct of operational missions, including those involving humanitarian assistance, related to relief efforts in Haiti," Obama wrote in a presidential order.

Emphasising that the US was supporting the Haitian government's "vision of rebuilding" the country and following its priorities, Crowley said it was "absolutely not true" that US military planes with troops were being allowed to land at the airport while those carrying aid supplies were not.

"They are bringing in aid, communications gear for the Haitian government so they can begin to operate and function once again," he said.

Crowley added that the US was "prepared to augment UN and Haiti forces if they need help, but for now, they are there for a humanitarian mission only."

Critical component

But Lieutenant-General Ken Keen, commander of the US military operation in Haiti, told ABC's This Week programme that the military was going to have to play a security role.

"We are here principally for a humanitarian assistance operation, but security is a critical component," he said.


Fights over food and water have broken out among quake survivors [Reuters]
His comments came as Rene Preval, the Haitian president, told reporters on Sunday that 3,500 US troops would be deployed to help UN and Haitian forces restore security in the capital.

With Haitian police and UN peacekeepers stretched thin and survivors becoming more desperate by the day, reports described growing incidents of violence across the devastated capital.

In some cases survivors fought each other with knives, hammers and rocks in fights over food and water, while police tried to disperse them with gunfire.

At least two people were shot dead on Sunday, witnesses said.

"We have 2,000 police in Port-au-Prince who are severely affected. And 3,000 bandits escaped from prison. This gives you an idea of how bad the situation is," said Preval, who has already given the US military control over the airport.

The US military's Southern Command said on Sunday that some 1,000 US troops had been put on the ground in Haiti, with another 4,000 stationed on vessels offshore.

A further 7,500 troops were set to arrive by Monday.

[derspiess]

Yep, that's it Hugo.  We're really taking advantage of the situation, having coveted Haiti for quite some time.

[Faeelin]

Wow, that's a lot of future zombis. Zombi apocalypse is nigh upon us!

Mister, I don't like your attitude.

[Faeelin]

Can't believe cruise liners are still taking vacationers to Haiti. I know, what difference does it make if they're sunbathing in Haiti or in the DR. But it's a principle. I love the "toss the bone" thing..."We're bringing in supplies." Right. Very nice

Because what the Haitian economy really needs is for tourism to end?

[Grey Fox]

Haiti, a state before Puerto Rico?

[HisMajestyBOB]

Yep, that's it Hugo.  We're really taking advantage of the situation, having coveted Haiti for quite some time.

The tears of foreign brown/black children power our empire.
Plus, oppression is just fun!

[Josephus]

Can't believe cruise liners are still taking vacationers to Haiti. I know, what difference does it make if they're sunbathing in Haiti or in the DR. But it's a principle. I love the "toss the bone" thing..."We're bringing in supplies." Right. Very nice

Because what the Haitian economy really needs is for tourism to end?

those cruiss ships don't do squat for the Haitian economy. People leave the boat, spend an afternoon on a private, secluded beach, and head back onto the boat.

[derspiess]

those cruiss ships don't do squat for the Haitian economy. People leave the boat, spend an afternoon on a private, secluded beach, and head back onto the boat.

So they don't spend any money while they're there, no Haitians are employed, and Haiti collects no tax revenue? 

[Darth Wagtaros]

those cruiss ships don't do squat for the Haitian economy. People leave the boat, spend an afternoon on a private, secluded beach, and head back onto the boat.

So they don't spend any money while they're there, no Haitians are employed, and Haiti collects no tax revenue? 

From what I've read Royal Caribbean has its own people there, mostly not Haitian.