Canadian Politics - Proroguing? Again?

[crazy canuck]

What you two dont say is that the "coalition" was a cynical attempt by Dion to try to become Prime Minister before he was replaced which was not backed by the Liberal party and which Iggy quickly threw aside once he was crowned leader of the Libs without a vote.

The Economist article is disappointing.  A hundred or so Political Science professors (all of whom who will have strong NDP or at the very least Liberal ties) write a protest letter.   Now thats news.

Fact of the matter is that majority governments use prorogation all the time - as the article implies but doesnt expressly say because that would beg the question why write about this at all.  We shall see how big a deal this actually is on the 23rd.  My guess is that the usual list of NDP folks that show up to all protests will be there, but not much else.

[Josephus]

The Economist article is disappointing.  A hundred or so Political Science professors (all of whom who will have strong NDP or at the very least Liberal ties) write a protest letter.   Now thats news.

Is this news?
While pundits and Parliament watchers suspected Canadians would care little about the prorogation announced last week by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, two-thirds of respondents to an Ekos poll released yesterday said they knew about the move - and their margin of disapproval was two to one. The poll also suggests the issue has eroded the strong base of support for Mr. Harper's party, which had, in recent months, jumped into majority territory.

Or did the poll only poll NDP Political scientists whilst they weren't rehearsing their Jan 23 protest.

[crazy canuck]

The Economist article is disappointing.  A hundred or so Political Science professors (all of whom who will have strong NDP or at the very least Liberal ties) write a protest letter.   Now thats news.

Is this news?
While pundits and Parliament watchers suspected Canadians would care little about the prorogation announced last week by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, two-thirds of respondents to an Ekos poll released yesterday said they knew about the move - and their margin of disapproval was two to one. The poll also suggests the issue has eroded the strong base of support for Mr. Harper's party, which had, in recent months, jumped into majority territory.

Or did the poll only poll NDP Political scientists whilst they weren't rehearsing their Jan 23 protest.

Th poll polled people who had just heard news reports that said this was a bad thing to do.  You really think the poll results are in any way surprising? My bet is that if you asked Canadians to explain in a sentence or two what prorogation is they couldnt do it.

As I said, we will see just how big the issue is in a week.

edit: if this does become an issue, then Harper will have miscalculated.  But not as he is accused of doing.  He will have miscalculated that the opposition was able to make this non issue into something to rally behind.

[Jacob]

Fact of the matter is that majority governments use prorogation all the time -

For me, this is what I'm trying to get a grip on; it's the crux of the matter so to speak.  How often is prorogation used?  You say "all the time".  Can you give me some other examples of prorogation being used beside Harper's last speech.  And while I'm interested in seeing the general use of prorogation (because I still don't have a clear picture of how often it's used), the more significant part is how often has it been used in situations where the legislative agenda had not been pretty much completed?

[Jacob]

edit: if this does become an issue, then Harper will have miscalculated.  But not as he is accused of doing.  He will have miscalculated that the opposition was able to make this non issue into something to rally behind.

Well, I'm tending towards rallying because the opposition's version seems to have a bit more substance, to whit:

Prorogation kills all legislation before parliament and is thus only used when the agenda is complete; there is still a bunch of stuff before parliament and it's all getting killed; this prorogation lasts for a longer period than normal; this prorogation is used as an attempt to kill inquiry into potentially very serious issues, namely the use and official knowledge of torture.

So far, the counter argument to that has been:

Prorogation happens all the time, it's no big deal.  Besides, Canadians will be distracted and not care.

The first two parts of the counterargument still has the potential to be convincing, but it needs to be expanded.  The last part is not an argument, it's a calculation.

[BuddhaRhubarb]

Okay, so that matches some of what I've heard elsewhere.

It's not just a routine action, it's fairly unprecedented and it seems cynical.  Why prorogate parliament when a recess would do and is customary?  Doesn't look too flattering.

This really is my issue. it seems like overkill. A recess would be the normal thing. And obviously many in the country and media find it strange and unsettling. I hope that Harper is overestimating Canadian complacency but I fear he isn't.

[BuddhaRhubarb]

edit: if this does become an issue, then Harper will have miscalculated.  But not as he is accused of doing.  He will have miscalculated that the opposition was able to make this non issue into something to rally behind.

Well, I'm tending towards rallying because the opposition's version seems to have a bit more substance, to whit:

Prorogation kills all legislation before parliament and is thus only used when the agenda is complete; there is still a bunch of stuff before parliament and it's all getting killed; this prorogation lasts for a longer period than normal; this prorogation is used as an attempt to kill inquiry into potentially very serious issues, namely the use and official knowledge of torture.

So far, the counter argument to that has been:

Prorogation happens all the time, it's no big deal.  Besides, Canadians will be distracted and not care.

The first two parts of the counterargument still has the potential to be convincing, but it needs to be expanded.  The last part is not an argument, it's a calculation.

ah Jacob, thank you for being more clear headed on this issue. I get all wrapped up in my annoyance and do not have your eloquence on it.

@ you Harper lovers - What Jacob says.

[crazy canuck]

This really is my issue. it seems like overkill. A recess would be the normal thing. And obviously many in the country and media find it strange and unsettling. I hope that Harper is overestimating Canadian complacency but I fear he isn't.

Bah, if he had called a recess they would have complained as bitterly.

Really tell me one concrete thing this actually changes other then the fact that we get a throne speach.  When Parliament resumes there will be the same calls for an inquiry into the Afghan detention issue and the bills that the government wish to proceed with will be introduced.

[BuddhaRhubarb]

This really is my issue. it seems like overkill. A recess would be the normal thing. And obviously many in the country and media find it strange and unsettling. I hope that Harper is overestimating Canadian complacency but I fear he isn't.

Bah, if he had called a recess they would have complained as bitterly.

Really tell me one concrete thing this actually changes other then the fact that we get a throne speach.  When Parliament resumes there will be the same calls for an inquiry into the Afghan detention issue and the bills that the government wish to proceed with will be introduced.

Maybe. But why can't we do it now? The only reason I can see is that Harper doesn't feel like it? The Olympics?

They don't want to do it now because they likely have found out that there was some incompetence on their part... letting torture happen or at least doing nothing about it at the time.

Time does make things seem less important, with the amount of Newsy stuff thrown at people every day. The break, whatever they want to call it is a stalling tactic, that I hope backfires. But odds are it won't far more people have blind faith in government than don't apparently.

[crazy canuck]

Maybe. But why can't we do it now? The only reason I can see is that Harper doesn't feel like it? The Olympics?

Wait a minute, you are the guy saying he should have recessed instead of prorogued.

[Josephus]

This really is my issue. it seems like overkill. A recess would be the normal thing. And obviously many in the country and media find it strange and unsettling. I hope that Harper is overestimating Canadian complacency but I fear he isn't.

Bah, if he had called a recess they would have complained as bitterly.

Really tell me one concrete thing this actually changes other then the fact that we get a throne speach.  When Parliament resumes there will be the same calls for an inquiry into the Afghan detention issue and the bills that the government wish to proceed with will be introduced.

Because Harper was gambling on the usual Canadian complacency, apathy and forgetfulness. I have a feeling that this time it's backfiring on him. The only good thing going for him, (and maybe that's what he's gambling on) is that the opposition doesn't have a strong enough leader, one who could capitalize on this issue.

Iggy should be at the forefront right now, holding press conferences, getting interviewed. Instead....God knows where he is.

Look, you can spin this any way you  want to;  but the fact that it's not just left-wing Canadian papers that are "harping" (get it--harping) on this issue, shows that there is something unusual afoot.

[crazy canuck]

Look, you can spin this any way you  want to;  but the fact that it's not just left-wing Canadian papers that are "harping" (get it--harping) on this issue, shows that there is something unusual afoot.

Yeah, the media needs a story to sell.  This is the only one going politically.

[Josephus]

Looks like Iggy is paying attention to me:

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff says Canadians want their elected MPs to get back to work and that's what Liberals members will be doing when they return to Ottawa later this month, despite the fact Parliament has been shut down until March.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced on Dec. 30 that he would prorogue Parliament until the Olympic Games had concluded. That guaranteed opposition parties would not be able to confront the Conservatives in the House of Commons for more than two months, and it sent all pending government legislation down the drain -- including bills on pension and Employment Insurance reform.

It was the second time in just over a year that Harper shut down Parliament, something Ignatieff said was the latest example of Harper going "too far."

"Every time this guy's in a hole, he tries to shut down institutions that control his power. That's what's bothering Canadians and that's what we're listening to," Ignatieff told reporters on Friday morning.

Ignatieff said he had heard a consistent message from Canadians in recent months, which he intends to follow.

"Do your darn job. Lower the volume. Do what you are elected to do," he said.

Ignatieff said he will send his troops -- including both senators and sitting MPs -- back to work on Jan. 25 to undertake a series of roundtables and pre-budget consultations on issues including jobs creation, unemployment, veterans' issues and the environment.

"We're not just showing up for a photo op, we're showing up to go to work. That's the point," Ignatieff said.

He said party members will also work with "other parliamentarians" to look at the issue of treatment of Afghan detainees, a thorny issue the government has been pressed about for weeks.

The Liberal leader said he will not push for an election despite what he called the "crazy way" the Tories have of running a democracy.

The Liberals' plan to head to work is the latest public embarassment Harper has endured over his controversial decision to prorogue Parliament.

Earlier this week, Britain's Economist magazine said the move smacked of "naked self interest." The influential publication had previously endorsed Harper in the Canadian previous two elections.

The prime minister's dressing-down by the Economist followed a public poll that suggested more than half of Canadians opposed the prorogation.

"I think this is getting to be an issue that's gotten out of control for the government and the Prime Minister's Office," CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife, told CTV News Channel.

Harper has made a number of media appearances in recent days "to try to justify his decision for closing down Parliament," said Fife.

If the Liberals -- and perhaps other opposition parties -- return to work over the next two months, it will leave the Conservative government on the defensive, Fife said.

With files from The Canadian Press

[crazy canuck]

"I think this is getting to be an issue that's gotten out of control for the government and the Prime Minister's Office," CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife, told CTV News Channel.

Harper has made a number of media appearances in recent days "to try to justify his decision for closing down Parliament," said Fife.

If the Liberals -- and perhaps other opposition parties -- return to work over the next two months, it will leave the Conservative government on the defensive, Fife said.

So one media guy tells another media guy that this might be a story....

[Malthus]

I'm of two minds on this - I can't see any good reason to shut Parliament down, but I equally can't see any particular strong political self-interest served. Shutting down discussion of Afgan detainees doesn't strike me as an issue anywhere near the gravity to the government to require such a self-defense move.