Finnish Winter War 70 years

[Duque de Bragança]

What is it about Portugal, is it something in the water?  We've had extreme right, extreme left, and extreme illiteracy all represented here.

We're still the only country in the world that applied to join the Warsaw Pact of its own volution.

(and got turned down by the USSR. Brejnev came here in person to tell us not to join. THAT was embarrassing  )

What? Portugal was an original member of NATO

Falling again for his trolling or what?
Left-wings radicals in Lisbon and Alentejo in '75 wanted to join the Warsaw Pact but that's all.

[Mr.Penguin]

The Western Allies should have intervened. Bomb Baku! Land troops at Narvik!

Narvik?, how is how would invading a country that has nothing to do with the conflict between the Sojvet Union and Finland in any way help Finland?...

Obviously the Norwegians and Swedes would welcome us with open arms for protecting them from the evil Soviet-Nazi alliance.

So you are going to attack both Norway and Sweden, nice. Still that doesnt get you closer to helping the finns, but that might not be your purpose with the invasion from the beginning...

[jimmy olsen]

The Western Allies should have intervened. Bomb Baku! Land troops at Narvik!

Narvik?, how is how would invading a country that has nothing to do with the conflict between the Sojvet Union and Finland in any way help Finland?...

Obviously the Norwegians and Swedes would welcome us with open arms for protecting them from the evil Soviet-Nazi alliance.

So you are going to attack both Norway and Sweden, nice. Still that doesnt get you closer to helping the finns, but that might not be your purpose with the invasion from the beginning...

Well the reason it didn't happen is the Swedes said no. However if the Swedes had been noble/suicidal and said yes a three way world war would have begun.

[Mr.Penguin]

The Western Allies should have intervened. Bomb Baku! Land troops at Narvik!

Narvik?, how is how would invading a country that has nothing to do with the conflict between the Sojvet Union and Finland in any way help Finland?...

Obviously the Norwegians and Swedes would welcome us with open arms for protecting them from the evil Soviet-Nazi alliance.

So you are going to attack both Norway and Sweden, nice. Still that doesnt get you closer to helping the finns, but that might not be your purpose with the invasion from the beginning...

Well the reason it didn't happen is the Swedes said no. However if the Swedes had been noble/suicidal and said yes a three way world war would have begun.

With the Swedes having to deal alonge, with the Sovjet Navy and Air force lining up, out side their Capital Stockholm, fat chance...

[Martim Silva]

Falling again for his trolling or what?
Left-wings radicals in Lisbon and Alentejo in '75 wanted to join the Warsaw Pact but that's all.

And you fail miserably at Portuguese History. Again.

The 'radicals' in Lisbon and Alentejo you say happened to be the Government (of the PM Vasco Gonçalves).

And it wasn't a rumour, hence Brezhnev's visit to Portugal.

Here, read in offical US documents how Kissinger discussed our entry in the Warsaw Pact with the leaders of Poland:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e15/107785.htm

GIEREK: Yes, and I have been to Viet-Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia--all over Asia. In Europe I have been to every country with the exception of Portugal and I hope soon to go there.

SECRETARY (Kissinger): Do you think they will join the Warsaw Pact soon?

GIEREK: We would certainly give serious consideration to that but, as you know, in the Warsaw Pact there are both privileges and duties that must be accepted. So far, however, there has been no such development. The Soviet Union is only one of the members. We would all have our own opinion.

ZABLOCKI: Do all the members of the Warsaw Pact have an equal voice?

GIEREK: Yes.

OLSZOWSKI: As concerns Portugal, it might be better for them to start with COMECON.

FRELEK: Yes, the Portuguese have an economic problem.

SECRETARY: We may yet have a situation in which Portugal is a member both of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Do you think that would advance European security?

OLSZOWSKI: That could be Basket IV.

JAGIELSKI: That would certainly be a new experience.

[Duque de Bragança]

Falling again for his trolling or what?
Left-wings radicals in Lisbon and Alentejo in '75 wanted to join the Warsaw Pact but that's all.

And you fail miserably at Portuguese History. Again.

The 'radicals' in Lisbon and Alentejo you say happened to be the Government (of the PM Vasco Gonçalves).

Nice try, it's comical though

cf.

ZABLOCKI: Do all the members of the Warsaw Pact have an equal voice?

GIEREK: Yes.

Lisboete Junta happened to be quite radical by then since moderates were nowhere to be seen. Vasco Gonçalves was a hardcore PCP communist so the left-wing radical label is perfectly legitimate.

Besides, there were plans to transfer the capital to Porto, approved even by nowadays Sócrates PS...
It would have been nice if only to get rid of that pesky Lisboete centralisation 

Btw, did you celebrate November 25th ?
i.e end of the leftist phase of the Carnation Revolution for the non-Lusophones here
end of playtime for Vasco Gonçalves and the like.

[Grey Fox]

This thread was interesting.

I don't see why some consider Stalin's demand legitimate. "I'm bad & big, I've killed 38,000 of my officers in the recent year, I want this & that. Give it to me."

[Martim Silva]

don't see why some consider Stalin's demand legitimate. "I'm bad & big, I've killed 38,000 of my officers in the recent year, I want this & that. Give it to me."

I'd go in more detail when I have the time, but the more accurate description is:

"I'm HUGE, I have no other problems and you have no outside support. I want this, in exchange I give you twice more elsewhere. Accept or face the consequences".

Lisboete Junta happened to be quite radical by then since moderates were nowhere to be seen. Vasco Gonçalves was a hardcore PCP communist so the left-wing radical label is perfectly legitimate.

'Lisboete Junta' is not a portuguese phrase, what are you trying to say?

Vasco Gonçalves was the Prime Minister, he led the Constitutional Government as head of Government. You can't get more legitimate than that, it was not some oddballs in a remote part of the country. The days of the Military Junta were over by then.

Btw, did you celebrate November 25th ?
i.e end of the leftist phase of the Carnation Revolution for the non-Lusophones here
end of playtime for Vasco Gonçalves and the like.

As you would know if you say, actually lived here and were alive at the time, nobody knows if November 25th was a coup, or even a coup by the Left or the Right. The Left says it was the Right, the Right says it was the Left.

Vasco Lourenço (Center, head of the Operational Command for the Continent) basically noted that it were the paratroopes who were fooled into making a move by occupying key buildings and says the MP allied with them. Major Tomé (Left, vice-commander of the MP at the time) says they never joined the paratroopers and that his unit was attacked without provocation. Lourenço claims he only attacked because Tomé and Andrade never reported to HQ as ordered [Tomé says they would not abandon their unit at such a dangerous time]

As for which side made the coup - if that was a coup - everybody (Otelo, Lourenço, Tomé, Eanes) say "we don't know". It kinda just happened.

I myself had fun that day (in '75) as things were utterly chaotic and I love when societal order breaks down [I also had a ball months earlier, when the military besieged Parliament].

[Duque de Bragança]

Lisboete Junta happened to be quite radical by then since moderates were nowhere to be seen. Vasco Gonçalves was a hardcore PCP communist so the left-wing radical label is perfectly legitimate.

'Lisboete Junta' is not a portuguese phrase, what are you trying to say?

That's right, since it's an English board. Just to mean that the situation in Lisbon did not reflect the situation of the country in general cf. elections in 1975 where the PCP had like 12% of the popular vote.

Vasco Gonçalves was the Prime Minister, he led the Constitutional Government as head of Government. You can't get more legitimate than that, it was not some oddballs in a remote part of the country. The days of the Military Junta were over by then.

Spínola was also the first Constitutional President yet he got ousted as Vasco Gonçalves after a putsch attempt (intoxication by communists?). I am not sure you consider him as legitimate as Vasco though...

Ever heard of the salami tactic used by communist parties ? Coup de Prague?
Porto remote part of the country? Not even Benfica fans go that far. 

Btw, did you celebrate November 25th ?
i.e end of the leftist phase of the Carnation Revolution for the non-Lusophones here.
End of playtime for Vasco Gonçalves and the like.

As you would know if you say, actually lived here and were alive at the time, nobody knows if November 25th was a coup, or even a coup by the Left or the Right. The Left says it was the Right, the Right says it was the Left.

I wasn't alive so I couldn't be there but I've got hindsight something you are sorely lacking. Not to mention blinded by politics as in your case. I guess you are now disqualified to speak about October 5th or December 1st.
Or was it another attack for VOTING and living abroad as many leftists do since Portuguese abroad don't vote for the left?

Vasco Lourenço (Center, head of the Operational Command for the Continent) basically noted that it were the paratroopes who were fooled into making a move by occupying key buildings and says the MP allied with them. Major Tomé (Left, vice-commander of the MP at the time) says they never joined the paratroopers and that his unit was attacked without provocation. Lourenço claims he only attacked because Tomé and Andrade never reported to HQ as ordered [Tomé says they would not abandon their unit at such a dangerous time]

COPCON created by Spínola which also claimed he had to do something in March 11. We all know how it ended.

As for which side made the coup - if that was a coup - everybody (Otelo, Lourenço, Tomé, Eanes) say "we don't know". It kinda just happened.

I myself had fun that day (in '75) as things were utterly chaotic and I love when societal order breaks down [I also had a ball months earlier, when the military besieged Parliament].

That I can agree with, the situation was chaotic at times. Watching in retrospect the Alentejan cooperatives is hilarious (jeeps for tractors for instance).
Saying the extreme left did not try to seize power is naive at best though.
The PS contributed in saving the country I guess and that's the one thing Soares can be lauded for.

[Grey Fox]

don't see why some consider Stalin's demand legitimate. "I'm bad & big, I've killed 38,000 of my officers in the recent year, I want this & that. Give it to me."

I'd go in more detail when I have the time, but the more accurate description is:

"I'm HUGE, I have no other problems and you have no outside support. I want this, in exchange I give you twice more elsewhere. Accept or face the consequences".

Twice more elsewhere isn't a good deal if the new land is worthless. You have to include natonalistic consideration too.