Finnish Winter War 70 years

[Valmy]

As long as the USSR existed, Finland was not 'Soviet-free'.

More Soviet free than the Romanians who did give the Soviets what they asked for.

[The Brain]

  That's all great Martim, except that you are living in a fantasy world.

[Martim Silva]

More Soviet free than the Romanians who did give the Soviets what they asked for.

At the time it decided to switch sides, the Red Army was already very near Bucharest and, more importantly, it was in the way for other areas - a good entry into Hungary, into Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania.

Unlike Finland, the USSR pretty much had to keep going through Rumania to get more countries. Otherwise the Western Allies would get there first. And Stalin did let Churchill keep Greece, as promised.

That's all great Martim, except that you are living in a fantasy world.

I'm merely stating historical facts. People dreaming Finland could somehow 'win' over the USSR are the ones living in la-la land.

[Brezel]

Not really. Finns like to promote that myth, but what they don't say is that they agreed to many demands from Moscow and became deeply involved with the Eastern Bloc: apart from the territories cededm under the 1947 peace treaty, Finland had to imprison several prominent politicians, reduce its armed forces, paid heavy economic reparations and allow the Soviet naval base at Hanko.

In addition, the separate Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance concluded in 1948 obligated Finland to militarily ally with the USSR if she was attacked. Helsinki also signed the Finnish-Soviet Clearing Trade and Payment System, which opened the markets of both countries to each other. As long as the USSR existed, Finland was not 'Soviet-free'.

Being "friends" with SU after the war wasn't bad in the long run. It really saw the imports rise. It's too bad that we missed on the whole "deportation-to-Siberia & Influx of native Russians" -thing Estonia saw happen for them. Seeing how great it still pays off in foreign and inner political climate in modern Baltic.

[Martim Silva]

Being "friends" with SU after the war wasn't bad in the long run. It really saw the imports rise. It's too bad that we missed on the whole "deportation-to-Siberia & Influx of native Russians" -thing Estonia had going on for them. Seeing how great it still pays off in foreign and inner political climate in modern Baltic.

OF COURSE it wasn't bad. It wasn't meant to be bad, it was meant to help both countries to prosper together.

And Estonia is a good example. Moscow *wanted* to gobble Estonia up. As a result...

Whereas Moscow *did not want* to gobble Finland. Which demonstrates the long-term strategy of the Kremlin towards Finland and proves the utter folly of Helsinki by allowing the 1939 war to happen.

[Brezel]

Whereas Moscow *did not want* to gobble Finland. Which demonstrates the long-term strategy of the Kremlin towards Finland and proves the utter folly of Helsinki by allowing the 1939 war to happen.

Yes! In fact, the Soviet Army just spontaneously, shining out the sheer good-will of Moscow towards the puny Finns decided to stop it's advance at the old border.

When the difference of forces is gigantic, you have two choices: you quit or you lose. There is no other way around it. And it does not make a damn difference weather you 'trust' Stalin or not - he could chew Finland whenever he wanted, no matter what Helsinki thought or did. So the Finns would have done better to take what was given to them.

Liberators of 44th division, taking a rest after chewing some Finland.

[Ed Anger]

Best thread of the day. Apologism of the Winter War? fun.

[DGuller]

I'm going to be blunt: Finland had no 'effective fortifications' against the USSR. You could build all the bunkers you wanted, but still in the case of a war with the USSR, Finland could only be the loser, period. Having forts that allow the country to last 1-2 more months counts for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things.

When the difference of forces is gigantic, you have two choices: you quit or you lose. There is no other way around it. And it does not make a damn difference weather you 'trust' Stalin or not - he could chew Finland whenever he wanted, no matter what Helsinki thought or did. So the Finns would have done better to take what was given to them.

And I recall - when she had the chance to annex the country, the USSR let Finland exist.

When you're in a position that Finland was in, your best bet to maintain your independence was to let the enemy know that conquering you would be very cost-prohibitive.  Finland did that as well as it could.

[Admiral Yi]

The first step in the takeover of the Baltic states was a request for basing rights.

[Faeelin]

The first step in the takeover of the Baltic states was a request for basing rights.

What's really funny is that we know Stalin wanted to conquer Finland, since he set up a puppet Finnish government. But whatev.

[DisturbedPervert]

Yes, the war was clearly a complete disaster for Finland

[Ed Anger]

Earlier in the day, I was going to troll this thread. But now, I don't need to.

Me = Redundant. 

[DGuller]

What is it about Portugal, is it something in the water?  We've had extreme right, extreme left, and extreme illiteracy all represented here.

[Martim Silva]

Yes! In fact, the Soviet Army just spontaneously, shining out the sheer good-will of Moscow towards the puny Finns decided to stop it's advance at the old border.

Actually, the Red Army stopped because the Finns asked for peace and accepted all demands - if you recall, Marshal Mannerheim had told the Germans that if they retreated from Estonia, then Helsinki would make peace, regardless of terms.

That was indeed a good way to stop the Red Army - you gave Moscow what it asked for.

When you're in a position that Finland was in, your best bet to maintain your independence was to let the enemy know that conquering you would be very cost-prohibitive.  Finland did that as well as it could.

The USSR was not the USA. 'Cost-prohibitive'? Out of a land of less than 5 million? Compared to the conquest of the whole of eastern and central Europe?

The USSR demonstrated in the Ukraine (and Russia in Chechnya) what happens to small populations that try to be 'cost-prohibitive'. They eventually found out Russia has more soldiers than they had population.

What's really funny is that we know Stalin wanted to conquer Finland, since he set up a puppet Finnish government. But whatev.

As you should know, the government of Otto Kuusinen was only announced *after* the war began - it did not exist during the negotiations, it was a rush job to be used at the bargain table (and it did its job, being dropped as part of the peace treaty)

Yes, the war was clearly a complete disaster for Finland.

What counts is who gets what at the end. Like the Ottomans getting Rhodes despite 200,000 losses. They still won that war.

[Martim Silva]

What is it about Portugal, is it something in the water?  We've had extreme right, extreme left, and extreme illiteracy all represented here.

We're still the only country in the world that applied to join the Warsaw Pact of its own volution.

(and got turned down by the USSR. Brejnev came here in person to tell us not to join. THAT was embarrassing  )