Anti-Minaret Online Referendum

[Martinus]

Who wouldn't want their city's landscape dominated by a giant dildo.

[Sheilbh]

We (well, most of Europe) do not allow all political ideologies to roam free. We try to silence the extreme ones. Why religion is any different?

We shouldn't double down on stupidity?

I think we should have confidence in the immense attractiveness of western values such as freedom, drunkenness and promiscuity.

I find it distasteful that we ban political parties for their views, I find it even more distasteful that we would have men reporting on what is preached in Mosques or Churches, lest they fall foul of 'modern society'.  I think that's a step backwards from our modern society and not to be desired.

A liberal society can not survive on the long term if it does not defend its basic ideas vehemently. If we say "no intolerance of minority lifestyles/races" then we should not have places of worship where they lash out against minorities. Simple as that.

The greatest defence, then, is surely the adherence to those values - which are attractive - not the selective abandonment of them?  How is a liberal society that defends its liberty by restricting free speech and restricting the right to religious practice significantly more liberal than an authoritarian society that does the same for the sake of security?

I find the lack of faith that people here have in the attractiveness of a liberal society through the simple, understated example of liberalism really weird.

What I hated in Indonesia was the cheap-ass calls to prayer that were just bad tape recordings. Have some guy with a good voice do it live.

Agreed nothing like a well sung call to prayer.  When I first arrived in Tangiers I was really happy that I'd arrived just as the sun was going down.  I got off the boat and the city started to cry out in the call to prayer - it was Ramadan as well, so especially importance.  I really liked it the entire time I was there.  But then I'm a very heavy sleeper.

That is sort of the point.  They cannot really be "assimilated" into society if they are not welcomed into it.

And let's not forget that while racism is thrown about too much a great deal of, especially continental, European societies are quite racist.  I knew a girl who was half-French, half-Cantonese who was born in Paris, had French as her mother tongue and had a degree in law who moved to London in part because she didn't like the racism in France.  She was really annoyed that despite being French and speaking with a Parisian accent people would talk to her as if she'd just stepped off the boat.

In this country the press and popular sentiment has turned on the Poles and Eastern Europeans.  These are legal migrants who have, overwhelmingly, got jobs, come from a similar racial and cultural background, claim very little on benefits, pay their taxes and commit little crime.  I used to believe that most people were culturalist in their opposition to immigration - that's a position I disagree with but respect.  I think some people are, I believe RH is, for example.  But I think the way that we view the Central and Eastern Europeans and other immigrant groups such as East Asians suggests to me that while it's not racism it is just xenophobia.

I think it's understandable, to some extent.  For all of the anxiety in Europe we have only 50-60 years of mass migration and that experience is overwhelmingly of people from different cultural and racial backgrounds.  I think it's as difficult for the society to deal with that as it is for the immigrant to assimilate - it requires, I think, work on both sides.  Now the US has around 200 years of experience with mass migration, we don't.

Integration on this forum too often seems to mean that immigrants should change but not that European societies treat them with any more consideration or effort.  The fact is it's difficult to demand that people change their way of life if you're not going to make a very concerted effort to treat them in the same way as you'd treat any other citizen.  I'm not convinced Europe's doing that.  In the UK I think London and maybe a couple of other well-off cities are where we should be in terms of equality of opportunity.  I also think it matters that we're now in an age of affordable cheap travel.  It's more difficult to keep your cultural background relevant if you can't affordably visit Karachi or Algiers a couple of times a year.

Is "political correctness" the new code word for "doing the right thing even if you'd rather not" these days? It seems to be thrown around these days every time someone is told he can't hate fags, blacks, muslims, immigrants and whatnot.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!

In the UK it generally means anything that the Daily Mail doesn't like.  If possible it should be linked to gypsies, immigrants and the EU in their desperate attempt to muzzle the bluff John Bull-ish Daily Mail.

[Admiral Yi]

I read in From Babel to Dragoman that whereas Islamic law deals exhaustively with how Muslims are supposed to act in Muslim-ruled lands, and how to deal with non Muslims in those same lands, it has virtually nothing to say about how Muslims should act in non-Muslim ruled lands.  This is virgin territory.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I find the anti-Polish sentiments I've read in parts of the tabloid press, and those that have been expressed to me by people I've spoken to, deeply depressing 

I agree with Sheilbh, it can only be xenophobia. I find the Poles who have made their way to Preston preferable to the general population; they enjoy a drink at the weekend (like the rest of us), are almost universally in work (unlike a large fraction of the natives) and are more polite and pleasant than the average. I suppose there must be horrible Poles somewhere, but they didn't come here 

The worst thing, IMO, is what this implies about the possibility of other groups ever being properly accepted. What chance does a brown non-drinking Muslim have when half the population doesn't even like a white beer-drinking Polish workman?

[Sheilbh]

The worst thing, IMO, is what this implies about the possibility of other groups ever being properly accepted. What chance does a brown non-drinking Muslim have when half the population doesn't even like a white beer-drinking Polish workman?

Exactly.  On the upside I think it suggests that Britain's remarkably un-racist given that our experience of mass non-white migration starts in 1948.  Perhaps it's progress that black and white Brits are united in disliking immigrants, not because of their colour but because they're foreign.  But it's a very small silver lining to a pretty depressing cloud.

[Neil]

Who wouldn't want their city's landscape dominated by a giant dildo.

Are you retarded or something?

[derspiess]

white beer-drinking

Mmmmm... witbier 

[derspiess]

Seriously- nah. The FBI needs a place to bug.

Bingo. I'd rather have the places infiltrated and monitored than driven underground. Build them as big as you can. As a plus if Islam has one redeeming quality is that its architecture is beautiful.

I beg to differ.  Ed knows what I'm talking about.  Not that the megachurch down the road & on the other side is any better, mind you

edit: here's the mosque, and I believe that's a minaret




And in the interest of equal time, here's the megachurch monstrosity:




And here are some of Ed's buddies being smartasses:



We do that at Bengals games at the end of the 3rd quarter (without Jesus, though).

[derspiess]

Because this is not a question about here or there, it's a question that should be adressed regardless of the setting.

Is it?  Why does it have to be the same for North America and Europe?  Europe is older, and has some beautiful ancient cities that absolutely should be preserved, without the blight of a minaret.  The U.S. is a lot younger, with more dynamic cityscapes, and I believe most mosques here tend to be in surburban areas, mostly out of the way. 

That's on top of the huge difference that exists between muslim immigrants in the U.S. and muslim immigrants in Europe.

The Europe and North American both belong to "the West" but there are and always will be differences. 

And the theme park thingie just grated me.

I actually meant that as a compliment.  I like theme parks

[Martinus]

We do that at Bengals games at the end of the 3rd quarter (without Jesus, though).

This BEGS for a YMCA set-up.

[Jaron]

I wonder if they'd let us build a gothic cathedral in downtown Mecca.

[Barrister]

Is it?  Why does it have to be the same for North America and Europe?  Europe is older, and has some beautiful ancient cities that absolutely should be preserved, without the blight of a minaret.  The U.S. is a lot younger, with more dynamic cityscapes, and I believe most mosques here tend to be in surburban areas, mostly out of the way. 

But surely that issue can be dealt with through general zoning and building restrictions, rather than banning mosques outright?

[Jaron]

and WHY is minaret a "blight"?

[Sheilbh]

Is it?  Why does it have to be the same for North America and Europe?  Europe is older, and has some beautiful ancient cities that absolutely should be preserved, without the blight of a minaret.  The U.S. is a lot younger, with more dynamic cityscapes, and I believe most mosques here tend to be in surburban areas, mostly out of the way. 

But surely that issue can be dealt with through general zoning and building restrictions, rather than banning mosques outright?

Yeah I mean Europe's old but we still have to build new offices and new houses and stuff.  I don't see why we shouldn't have minarets if we can have Ortho churches:

Hindu Temples:

And the largest Gurdwara outside of India:

All of those are from London.  But while I agree that we should protect our cities and our heritage it's simply impossible to stop development full-stop.

[PDH]

I have to admit, RoboJesus emerging from his slumber in that lake is pretty fucking cool.