52% of Republicans Believe ACORN Stole the Election

[Eddie Teach]

The anti-Randians are almost as uncool as the Randians. :whogivesafuck:

[grumbler]

Doesn't legitimately just mean legally?  So even if he won just because he's black, that's legal.  If he didn't win the election legitimately then you need a conspiracy theory.

Are you talking about what i think, or about what the poll question was asking?  If the latter, then what does the most limited technical definition of "legitimate" have to do with this issue?  The popular definition (and the one likeliest to be used by a random sampling of Americans) would be more along the lines of "in accordance with recognized or accepted standards or principles," which many may see as excluding riding one's race (particularly if one is riding "guilt" by implicitly "playing the race card") to a win.

If you want to argue that the question was well-written (or that it was poorly-written but we should accept the implications of its responses as legit anyway), then by all means we can debate either of those.  I don't think we should debate them on the basis of which definition of "legitimate' we choose to favor, though.

[Sheilbh]

Are you talking about what i think, or about what the poll question was asking?  If the latter, then what does the most limited technical definition of "legitimate" have to do with this issue?  The popular definition (and the one likeliest to be used by a random sampling of Americans) would be more along the lines of "in accordance with recognized or accepted standards or principles," which many may see as excluding riding one's race (particularly if one is riding "guilt" by implicitly "playing the race card") to a win.

Well I don't think that defining legitimate as legal, in terms of elections, is a narrow definition.  For example in the developing world if there's a question of fraud or anything like that the election is 'illegitimate' and that's the word in common currency, not in it's most technical definition.  A legitimate election is one that is free and fair and in which the votes are counted.

So if you don't think that the election of Barack Obama was legitimate then I think you have to fall back on a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you want to argue that the question was well-written (or that it was poorly-written but we should accept the implications of its responses as legit anyway), then by all means we can debate either of those.  I don't think we should debate them on the basis of which definition of "legitimate' we choose to favor, though.

No, I'm past the question.  It's badly written.

[garbon]

As grumbler said, why are you picking out one definition of legitimate but leaving out others? I doubt it is because you find the crazy Republican narrative appealing.

[Sheilbh]

As grumbler said, why are you picking out one definition of legitimate but leaving out others? I doubt it is because you find the crazy Republican narrative appealing.

When you are talking about the formation of a government I think legitimate only has one meaning.  If a government is illegitimate it is illegal: it came to power by a military coup or by a fraudulent election.  That is how the word legitimate is used in popular discourse about governments.  It's not a highly technical and narrow definition.  And I'd add that when you're talking about the American 'accepted standards and principles of an election' I'd consider that to mean the election was free, fair and the votes were counted.

[alfred russel]

The count in the 2000 was totally legit--Bush won 5-4.

Actually, he won 7-2.

But didn't 2 of those 7 want to send it back to the Florida courts? With the Florida Supreme Court in Gore's corner, they were voting to hand it to Gore.

[DGuller]

The count in the 2000 was totally legit--Bush won 5-4.

Actually, he won 7-2.

But didn't 2 of those 7 want to send it back to the Florida courts? With the Florida Supreme Court in Gore's corner, they were voting to hand it to Gore.

Any way you look at it, it was quite a surreal situation (and way more than that in hindsight, given the implications of the eventual outcome).

[PDH]

Whatever. Fuck.  Don't blame me, I wrote in Charlton Heston.

[Razgovory]

The anti-Randians are almost as uncool as the Randians. :whogivesafuck:

Anti-Randian is like anti-communist.  It's not cool or uncool.  It's the norm.

[Caliga]

But crazy people believe that all disagreements with them are due to some weird conspiracy or belief system held by their opponent, so Raz will probably see your denial here as proof that his statement is true.

Ah, gotcha.  So in my denial I will definitely be lying.  Because I have some compelling reason to lie about this.  

[Caliga]

Anti-Randian is like anti-communist.  It's not cool or uncool.  It's the norm.

Nope, the norm is "I don't know who Rand is and don't care."

[grumbler]

When you are talking about the formation of a government I think legitimate only has one meaning.

What if you are talking about a poll?

The argument that all governments that are elected according to their laws are "legitimate" is technically correct, but I think you will find that you are in a minority when you claim that that is the only possible meaning of the term, even with regard to governments.

[Sheilbh]

The argument that all governments that are elected according to their laws are "legitimate" is technically correct, but I think you will find that you are in a minority when you claim that that is the only possible meaning of the term, even with regard to governments.

Okay.  But give me an example of a time when illegitimate has been used for any allegation other than the legal formation of a government? 

[Neil]

If the latter, then what does the most limited technical definition of "legitimate" have to do with this issue?  The popular definition (and the one likeliest to be used by a random sampling of Americans) would be more along the lines of "in accordance with recognized or accepted standards or principles," which many may see as excluding riding one's race (particularly if one is riding "guilt" by implicitly "playing the race card") to a win.

I think somebody has hacked grumbler's account.

[Eddie Teach]

The argument that all governments that are elected according to their laws are "legitimate" is technically correct, but I think you will find that you are in a minority when you claim that that is the only possible meaning of the term, even with regard to governments.

Okay.  But give me an example of a time when illegitimate has been used for any allegation other than the legal formation of a government?

children born out of wedlock