Roman Polanski arrested in Zürich

[Martinus]

Stealing a car is illegal; it's just a less serious crime than killing a person with a car. I'm not excusing the guy at all. I just don't get the fixation with the drugs.

I don't think this is a good analogy, though. There is much less of a casual link between the fact that the car was stolen and the car accident than there is between giving a girl drugs and then fucking her.

[Eddie Teach]

It shows malice of forethought, also makes the situation a forceable rape.

What makes it forcible rape is the fact he held her and and forced her. If she had had a couple drinks and been all over him, he'd still have been culpable due to her age, but it wouldn't have merited 20 years in prison. (Yes I realize he wasn't going to get anywhere near that, but someone who attacks women in the parking lot would and his actual offense sounds more like that).

[Martinus]

It shows malice of forethought, also makes the situation a forceable rape.

What makes it forcible rape is the fact he held her and and forced her. If she had had a couple drinks and been all over him, he'd still have been culpable due to her age, but it wouldn't have merited 20 years in prison. (Yes I realize he wasn't going to get anywhere near that, but someone who attacks women in the parking lot would and his actual offense sounds more like that).

I think however that you could build an argument that giving alcohol and drugs to a 13 y.o. is not that much different from giving a "rape pill" to an adult woman - because the girl may be unaware of the effects of alcohol and drugs on her ability to consent/resist.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't think this is a good analogy, though. There is much less of a casual link between the fact that the car was stolen and the car accident than there is between giving a girl drugs and then fucking her.

There was no causal link in this case though. If the drugs had made her pliant, sure. But he could have raped her just as easily without.

[Martinus]

I don't think this is a good analogy, though. There is much less of a casual link between the fact that the car was stolen and the car accident than there is between giving a girl drugs and then fucking her.

There was no causal link in this case though. If the drugs had made her pliant, sure. But he could have raped her just as easily without.

She resisted but not strong enough (read her testimony - she says she felt powerless to resist him, didn't fight, etc.) I don't think this is as much a leap of faith to assume that this was at least partially due to the fact that she was inebriated.

[Eddie Teach]

I think however that you could build an argument that giving alcohol and drugs to a 13 y.o. is not that much different from giving a "rape pill" to an adult woman - because the girl may be unaware of the effects of alcohol and drugs on her ability to consent/resist.

Well, I think in that case it would make a big difference if she knew she was taking a pill or not. Don't most date rape trials involve some kind of subterfuge on the guy's part?

[DGuller]

I have no idea what the average person there thinks of the matter. So far, all I've heard is the articles written by film types and politicians - who seem to shrug it off as a mild misdeed in his past and an example of American hysteria over sex.

To my mind, such a reaction is frankly bizzare. It is true that we in North America have greater hang-ups about sex and sexual misconduct - whenever a public figure is caught with his (or her) pants down, it ignites a shit-storm. But that is over sex that is consentual. It isn't a "hang up' to have strong dissaproval of, and prosecution of, sex that is non-consentual.

Agreed, it's mind-boggling.  It's one of those times were you start wondering whether you're sane, because what you see or hear just makes no sense at all.

[Eddie Teach]

She resisted but not strong enough (read her testimony - she says she felt powerless to resist him, didn't fight, etc.) I don't think this is as much a leap of faith to assume that this was at least partially due to the fact that she was inebriated.

Why read her testimony when I can go on short paragraph summaries people have posted? 

I was under the impression she put up resistance and he physically held her down and raped her. In that situation it would be ludicrous for people to keep saying "he drugged her and raped her" as if the drugging was as big a deal as the rape. But I guess I was wrong, oh well, won't be the last time.

[Martinus]

She resisted but not strong enough (read her testimony - she says she felt powerless to resist him, didn't fight, etc.) I don't think this is as much a leap of faith to assume that this was at least partially due to the fact that she was inebriated.

Why read her testimony when I can go on short paragraph summaries people have posted? 

I was under the impression she put up resistance and he physically held her down and raped her. In that situation it would be ludicrous for people to keep saying "he drugged her and raped her" as if the drugging was as big a deal as the rape. But I guess I was wrong, oh well, won't be the last time.

No, no. As far as I understand she would just say "no, I don't like it" once or twice, but he would do it anyway, however she offered no physical resistance.

[Martinus]

I think however that you could build an argument that giving alcohol and drugs to a 13 y.o. is not that much different from giving a "rape pill" to an adult woman - because the girl may be unaware of the effects of alcohol and drugs on her ability to consent/resist.

Well, I think in that case it would make a big difference if she knew she was taking a pill or not. Don't most date rape trials involve some kind of subterfuge on the guy's part?

Yeah but my point is that with a 13 y.o., you cannot expect her to be totally aware of the effect of drugs and alcohol, and as such this is similar (if not identical) to subterfuge, because essentially he is giving her a substance has an effect of her she does not predict.

I think it is akin to a situation of giving an adult woman a rape pill, but saying that its effects are really an urban legend, and it just gives you a nice buzz, or something - the woman in this case would know she is taking the pill, but would be unaware of the full consequences.

Not to mention, that if you drug a willing woman and then have sex with her when she can't resist, you can be held accountable for rape even if she was aware of the effect the drug will have on her.

[Razgovory]

Well it's not like she was given Pot for a nice Buzz.  She was given sedatives to make her quite and pliant.

[Martinus]

I have no idea what the average person there thinks of the matter. So far, all I've heard is the articles written by film types and politicians - who seem to shrug it off as a mild misdeed in his past and an example of American hysteria over sex.

To my mind, such a reaction is frankly bizzare. It is true that we in North America have greater hang-ups about sex and sexual misconduct - whenever a public figure is caught with his (or her) pants down, it ignites a shit-storm. But that is over sex that is consentual. It isn't a "hang up' to have strong dissaproval of, and prosecution of, sex that is non-consentual.

Agreed, it's mind-boggling.  It's one of those times were you start wondering whether you're sane, because what you see or hear just makes no sense at all.

I think the reason for this is twofold. First of all, a lot of people are misinformed about the details. And second, the case is prone to make people adopt a knee-jerk reaction because on one hand you have child abuse, and on the other you have the OMG A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR ARTIST PERSECUTED BY THE FASCIST AMERIKKKA, and both issues are highly volatile.

[The Minsky Moment]

I personally found Polanski's invocation of his Holocaust experience as some kind of excuse for his flight from justice to be very offensive.

[Martinus]

I personally found Polanski's invocation of his Holocaust experience as some kind of excuse for his flight from justice to be very offensive.

The problem is that he was not the only one that did that but a lot of people did that too. For example Anne Applebaum.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yes I thought it was offensive when she did it as well.